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51 minutes ago, billchao said:

I get the impression that Game Golf's smart tips are aimed at the things that can lower your score the fastest.

 

 

Right, they have the smart tips in descending order based on the more granular categories (that we're not allowed to see).  

  

58 minutes ago, billchao said:

 

They're not bogus, they're just flawed. The fact that they underemphasize the number of strokes you lose off the tee doesn't mean you can't improve on your putting.

The putting stats have to be pretty close to bogus, though right?  If you rely on tagging, as most users do, you're off by 2-3 yards (6-9 feet) before even considering that the location of the pin is not tagged.  Sure, you might be able to get it down to +/-3 feet if you're really careful, but its not just about you.  How careful is the average user, especially considering that before now--i.e., when all of the baseline data was collected--there was no way to make use of the putt data beyond the # of putts per hole.  Garbage in garbage out. 

 

1 hour ago, billchao said:

That's not what it says at all. It gives you four different tips and they're not all "improve your putting from 5 feet." If you're losing eight strokes on putting alone, then it's a glaring weakness as @saevel25 said and it should be your main priority. If you're losing eight strokes due to your putting and eight strokes due to your driving, it's significantly easier to shave those strokes by improving your putting.

I don't remember what your numbers look like, @Abu3baid, but even if you told me you lost 12 strokes off the tee and 8 on the greens, I'd probably still tell you to work on your putting more. You should be practicing all your skills anyway, but spending more time on your putting will yield greater returns.

 

I also think  @Abu3baid is confusing the general idea that long game matters more than short game with the numbers actually presented here.  One is a generality, and one is specific to you.  Assuming that the numbers were correct, they would support the idea that the long game is more important generally, the opposite might be true in your particular circumstances.  

 

Then again, that general proposition is not really what we're seeing with these charts.  It sounds like Erik doesn't think they are jiving with his research or Brodie's. 

 


I really hope they unlock access to the smaller subsets rather than the four they pick to show you, but that seems to be how gamegolf has operated thus far.  They're more interested in being easy to use and aesthetically pleasing than truly useful.  I think they are trying to reach a broader market that doesn't care about the details.  Just like last year when there were all sorts of complaints/suggestions as to how make it far more useful, we were told they listening and working on addressing those.  They've come out with big new features that are actually really cool, but haven't fixed the glaring problems.  But don't worry, they're super busy right now rolling out their new half-done product.  They'll probably get around to fixing it later.  Here's to hoping they do!

 

 

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30 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

The putting stats have to be pretty close to bogus, though right?  If you rely on tagging, as most users do, you're off by 2-3 yards (6-9 feet) before even considering that the location of the pin is not tagged.  Sure, you might be able to get it down to +/-3 feet if you're really careful, but its not just about you.

I don't know that I'd call it bogus. Flawed, yes, but still somewhat useful. My experience is that I tend to place my shots too far from the location of the hole because they don't give you a measurement of the distance away from the hole on any given shot, which I'd like to see changed, so in reality my short game is  probably a little better than Game Golf thinks it is, but my putting is worse, as @iacas mentioned before.

If Game Golf thinks I need to improve on my 10-30 foot putts, I'm actually a worse putter than it thinks I am because I'm missing shorter putts than they realize.

38 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

How careful is the average user, especially considering that before now--i.e., when all of the baseline data was collected--there was no way to make use of the putt data beyond the # of putts per hole.  Garbage in garbage out. 

I think if the average user doesn't care enough to place the location of their shots and the pin correctly, they probably aren't going to care that their putting analysis stats are wrong.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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On 11/14/2015, 1:39:02, RandallT said:

Fascinating thread. I'll definitely stay tuned to see everyone's distributions.  

Several folks here have taken part in a strokes gained spreadsheet that I've cobbled together, and you touch on an important issue, Bill. If you drive the ball into the trees and chip out sideways, how do you count that chip shot back to the fairway? I agree with you that it should count against the drive, so that's how I treat it. Mark Broadie (and many others I've seen on the internet) have a separate category called "Recovery" shots, but I think that's bogus. I wonder how Game Golf treats that.

For example, if you are 160yds in the rough behind a tree after a drive, does Game Golf think you are aiming for the green for an approach shot from that 160yds when you actually just chip it out to 120yds in the fairway? I'd prefer to charge that chip-out against the drive and say that it took you 2 shots from the tee to get to 120yds away. Then you only count the 120yd shot as an approach 

How would Game Golf know that your 160yd chip out was not an actual approach shot? Seemingly minor point, but can add up for high handicappers from what I've seen on rounds I've input into my spreadsheet for various SandTrappers.

 

Again, fascinating. 4 strokes off the tee??? Hmmmmm. You've sent me 3 rounds that we compared against the PGA Tour strokes gained (not scratch), and your approximate breakdown in those 3 rounds was: 

Drives -10

Approaches -11

Short Game -3

Putting -10

You averaged 103 on those 3 rounds, and a pro would shoot 34 shots better per round (69).

Certainly those 10 rounds you put into Game Golf are more representative to the 3 rounds we entered into my spreadsheet, but I do know that when I reviewed those 3 rounds you recorded for me, you were DEFINITELY losing more than 4 off the tee per round. So unless the rounds you sent me were unusual, I'd suspect something may be off in the analysis Game Golf is giving you for your driving. 

It could be related to the issue discussed above with @billchao. You scrambled after your tee shot to get back to the fairway or in a position to aim at the green, so Game Golf likely won't count those against your drive- whereas I did. But Game Golf thinks you are 6 strokes better per round than my spreadsheet. That's quite a difference, and I'm not sure what's going on with that discrepancy.

 

Yes, I agree this will matter quite a bit. I know when I was recording a few of my own rounds using my "poor man's" spreadsheet, I was overestimating the distance of my short game shots. I was recording a chip as being say 25yds, when it was actually closer to 15yds. So my short game appeared better than it actually was (impact was a stroke or two difference).

But the same applies for when players use Game Golf, I'm certain. It is very important to get initial putt distances correct, because that will impact how good the approach shot (or short game shot) is rated, of course. So people will need to go back and edit their rounds, I assume, so that they can make sure that the initial putt distances are within a few feet of the actual length. Otherwise, it will throw off the entire calculation. 

Does Game Golf have a good interface to ensure that the initial putt distance is correct? I know you can move the pin around the green afterwards as part of editing your round, but I'm wondering if there's confirmation as you do that so that you can ensure that it shows a 20ft putt, if that's what it was. Being off by 5 feet or so can be significant, and errors can accumulate pretty fast and you'll just be hoping they cancel each other out if you don't set the initial putt distance correctly.

Lastly, interesting Game Golf chose 100yds as the short game threshold. LSW chose 60yds. Was that a difficult decision to select 60yds for the book's analysis (and I chose to follow LSW for my spreadsheet analysis)? Do you agree with Game Golf using 100yds?

Yeah, I remember a lot of that analysis.  What sort of is surprising when comparing what GG says compared to your analysis on Driving.  I think with your analysis I can conclude that because my approach shots and are so terrible, that even though I can drive the ball a fairly decent distance, what's really hurting me is the wide dispersion with my driver, woods, and irons. 

As for your analysis with short game and putting, I may have forgotten to tell you that when we were doing the analysis, I told you putt distances in terms of feet that should have been yards.  I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well but when we were saying that my putting was one of the worst ever (and I don't discount that), I told you I'd miss a 2 foot putt which actually should have been a 2 yard putt so that data, sadly, is totally inaccurate due to a fault in what I communicated to you.

Christian

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strokes-gained-2015-11-16.thumb.jpg.6c6e

That's probably not terribly far off.  I know I'm a decent putter and have less room for improvement there, but I feel like I lose more strokes off the tee than anywhere else though.

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4 hours ago, dsc123 said:

How careful is the average user, especially considering that before now--i.e., when all of the baseline data was collected--there was no way to make use of the putt data beyond the # of putts per hole.  Garbage in garbage out.

That's a good point I hadn't really thought of. If they are building up a database for comparison to develop their own strokes gained, they need everyone to mark where the pin is somewhat accurately (first putt distance is critical, as we all know). If people don't, then the source data against which you compare could be off- even if you mark your pins diligently.

2 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

Yeah, I remember a lot of that analysis.  What sort of is surprising when comparing what GG says compared to your analysis on Driving.  I think with your analysis I can conclude that because my approach shots and are so terrible, that even though I can drive the ball a fairly decent distance, what's really hurting me is the wide dispersion with my driver, woods, and irons. 

As for your analysis with short game and putting, I may have forgotten to tell you that when we were doing the analysis, I told you putt distances in terms of feet that should have been yards.  I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well but when we were saying that my putting was one of the worst ever (and I don't discount that), I told you I'd miss a 2 foot putt which actually should have been a 2 yard putt so that data, sadly, is totally inaccurate due to a fault in what I communicated to you.

That's pretty funny actually! Ya know, when we were doing your numbers, I did want to ask you to confirm your putting distances, but I forgot. By telling my that you were missing those 1 and 2 footer (really 3 and 6 footers), your putting numbers were about twice as bad as anyone else. I took the liberty of guessing your REAL putting distances on one of your rounds, and here is how it changed your breakdown for one round:

BEFORE:

564a332479353_ScreenShot2015-11-16at1.27

AFTER:

564a3326ad66e_ScreenShot2015-11-16at1.27

 

This highlights how important initial putt distance is. I basically tripled your initial putt distances, and it changed your distribution significantly. Of course, the overall SG stayed the same and the driving SG stayed the same, but the approaches and short game numbers got worse, while your putting got better.

I've summarized all of the SG's recorded in the thread so far. Here's a chart:

564a33fc3ffc8_ScreenShot2015-11-16at2.51

 

As you can see, driving only accounts for 13% of the strokes lost.

For what it's worth (and that might be very little), here is a summary of all the SandTrappers who have sent me their rounds:

564a33fa91972_ScreenShot2015-11-16at2.52

The first chart above compares against scratch golfers, and the second chart compares against PGA players, but it's interesting to see how Game Golf has 40% of strokes lost due to full swing, 60% around the green and putting. 

When you compare SandTrappers against MarkBroadie/PGA data, you get 67% of strokes lost for the full swing, 33% around the green and putting.

 

 

Edited by RandallT
changed word "worse" to "better"
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I saved my picture from my initial post so I cam compare. I play so often that I want to compare how my strokes gained has improved/digressed. It only shows your last 10 rounds, but I hope they factor in a trend over time. 

Kyle Paulhus

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Can someone suggest to Game Golf that they implement this: double-tapping with the device with the putter tag, or even any tag (say in less than 1 or 2 seconds) would mark the hole location.  It would work either like a proper double-tap (similar to a mouse double-click) when standing at the hole, or when one is so close to the hole but misses and putts once more within the 1 or 2 seconds window.  It wouldn't have to be done prior to putting either: one could easily do the double-tap as they are placing the flagstick back in the hole...

At least this way, the error would be limited to the GPS error, more or less and could probably be within 3 feet, depending on how accurate the device is.  A phone GPS is not accurate enough.

Thanks!

Edited by sjduffers

Philippe

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8 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

  A phone GPS is not accurate enough.

The GPS in the Game Golf likely isn't much better than the one in the phone. Probably similar. 

Michael

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Just now, mchepp said:

The GPS in the Game Golf likely isn't much better than the one in the phone. Probably similar. 

Really? I thought that it was the whole point of the device. Have a strong and accurate GPS signal, because otherwise you can do NFC (Android only as it is locked for ApplePay on IOS) or Bluetooth to the phone directly without a need for the device.

Philippe

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5 minutes ago, mchepp said:

The GPS in the Game Golf likely isn't much better than the one in the phone. Probably similar. 

GPS on the game golf is better than my iphone. The iphone gps is pretty solid. Sometimes when I use the app I have slightly more shots tagged that end up off from where I hit the shot. 

16 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Can someone suggest to Game Golf that they implement this:

You can through their website ;) 

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29 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

GPS on the game golf is better than my iphone. The iphone gps is pretty solid. Sometimes when I use the app I have slightly more shots tagged that end up off from where I hit the shot. 

That's what I would expect. Thanks for confirming it.

30 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

You can through their website ;) 

Cool. I found a place to email them a question so I did post that suggestion. Thanks!

Philippe

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For now I am just careful editing rounds and move the pin where it should be. I assume better players are averaging close to two putts so your last putt most always close to the hole. The only time it's way off for me is if I sink the occasional lucky long putt. 

Even if it was dead nuts imo not helpful for me. Without seeing anything but gir stats I know where I need to put in the work. My scores go as my drives go. 

Dave :-)

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On 11/14/2015, 10:28:49, Jeremie Boop said:

Well, hell, I never would have guessed that my putting was costing me the most... Just doesn't seem correct.

I'm more than a little ashamed at these numbers. Guess it just shows that I definitely have a lot to work on.

sgo.jpg

I'm intrigued by this your chart, @Jeremie Boop. Do you think that this can possibly be true with your game? If so, you are an outlier in that you only 4 or 5 strokes off the green (drives, approach, and short game combined), but 9-ish strokes on the green per round. And you're a 17.7 handicapper. 

If GG's analysis is anywhere near correct, and you are losing so few strokes off the green, I would think that you have the skills and coordination to improve your putting fairly dramatically if you focused attention there. Boom- a single-digit handicap without additional swing lessons :-D

The bizarre putting skew MIGHT be an issue with their data and maybe they have your initial putts as being very short putts (when really they were a more typical distribution of putts), so they are dinging you for two-putting consistently from only 3 or 4 feet or something. I don't know, but I do know that by comparing your distribution against the others who have posted on this thread, yours seems to be an outlier.

And if GG's strokes gained analysis is incorrect for you, your account might be a good test case for them to go back and look at what they're doing wrong. It just doesn't pass the sniff test to me, but who knows- maybe your putting is really that bad relative to your outstanding full swing and short game.

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It's just 10 rounds right? Someone trending either way could have 10 round stats they are not likely to sustain. And GG counts 9 hole signed rounds, 10 rounds might not be 10x18. 

I know my putting stats are higher than usual due to a late season increase in GIR. That will change. Anyone that's used GG for long enough to see their trends knows their numbers bounce around. 

Dave :-)

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53 minutes ago, RandallT said:

The bizarre putting skew MIGHT be an issue with their data and maybe they have your initial putts as being very short putts (when really they were a more typical distribution of putts), so they are dinging you for two-putting consistently from only 3 or 4 feet or something. I don't know, but I do know that by comparing your distribution against the others who have posted on this thread, yours seems to be an outlier.

And if GG's strokes gained analysis is incorrect for you, your account might be a good test case for them to go back and look at what they're doing wrong. It just doesn't pass the sniff test to me, but who knows- maybe your putting is really that bad relative to your outstanding full swing and short game.

I don't think @Jeremie Boop's results are accurate at all. I've seen him play golf, and while he's a fine person, he's not losing strokes in those areas at those rates.

As @Dave2512 points out, we still have to consider the possibility of some "odd" rounds skewing the data, but… even still, I don't see it skewing this much for @Jeremie Boop.

45 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

It's just 10 rounds right? Someone trending either way could have 10 round stats they are not likely to sustain. And GG counts 9 hole signed rounds, 10 rounds might not be 10x18. 

I know my putting stats are higher than usual due to a late season increase in GIR. That will change. Anyone that's used GG for long enough to see their trends knows their numbers bounce around. 

 

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1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

GPS on the game golf is better than my iphone. The iphone gps is pretty solid. Sometimes when I use the app I have slightly more shots tagged that end up off from where I hit the shot. 

You are talking about the Game Golf app, right? I don't know how they utilize the GPS chip while the app is running on the phone. If they just take whatever data from positioning the phone gives them they might be led astray by the phone turning off GPS and then trying to utilize the cell coordinates rather than the actual GPS coordinates. The phone often turns off the GPS chip due to power consumption concerns and then tries to approximate with a signal it is already getting from the cell tower to locate you. This is not as accurate but much faster. The Game Golf probably has the GPS chip on all the time recording locations until it gets a RFID interrupt and logs where you are. So it could be that the accuracy of both GPS chips are about the same, but because the app occasionally uses cell tower data it can appear incorrect.

There is also a question in my mind about how the phone maps the coordinates to the actual google maps picture it uses in the app. This could be trickier on the phone than on a desktop computer. 

I haven't used my Game Golf for the last 4 rounds I played but here are my stats prior to my last 4.

 

564b650113ced_ScreenShot2015-11-17at9.30

Michael

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On 11/16/2015, 10:56:35, billchao said:

I think if the average user doesn't care enough to place the location of their shots and the pin correctly, they probably aren't going to care that their putting analysis stats are wrong.

Right, but Game Golf calculates your strokes gained putting by comparing your data to the data collected from its other users.  So if those users' data is junk, then so is yours.   

Dan

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