# Share your New Strokes Gained Data from GAME Golf!

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I am interested in starting to use  GG (at least the app at this point) to start tracking my rounds. I have read through this thread and am a bit confused about one point. I thought strokes gained putting was based on the result of the initial distance...not the distance of each putt. In other words if I hit a green in regulation and have 20 feet for birdie and I 3 putt I lose strokes (in relation to my targeted handicap) and if I one putt I gain strokes.

If I am wrong than my point is useless but...

I know get to the point...

Why won't you just enter the distance you have left to the hole on your phone/watch as you play. This would help with the accuracy of both short game and putting statistics. Maybe the point of the program with the tags is to tag and move and adding another step is not what they are trying for...it just seems like a simple solution.

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5 hours ago, bjfox10 said:

I am interested in starting to use  GG (at least the app at this point) to start tracking my rounds. I have read through this thread and am a bit confused about one point. I thought strokes gained putting was based on the result of the initial distance...not the distance of each putt. In other words if I hit a green in regulation and have 20 feet for birdie and I 3 putt I lose strokes (in relation to my targeted handicap) and if I one putt I gain strokes.

If I am wrong than my point is useless but...

I know get to the point...

Why won't you just enter the distance you have left to the hole on your phone/watch as you play. This would help with the accuracy of both short game and putting statistics. Maybe the point of the program with the tags is to tag and move and adding another step is not what they are trying for...it just seems like a simple solution.

You can enter the distance of ALL of your putts (by moving the points around).

I'm pretty sure that only the first putt distance is used in their strokes gained stats.

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8 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can enter the distance of ALL of your putts (by moving the points around).

I'm pretty sure that only the first putt distance is used in their strokes gained stats.

I think so. Now I just have to play around with it.

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Sorry if I missed it, but I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet:

Game Golf, which uses sensors on the butt end of each club and a wearable GPS device to track yardages, accuracy and efficiency for every shot you hit in a round, is adding a pin placement feature to its software that will allow users to position the hole in its precise location on every green. The company says the result will be enhanced accuracy on putting and short game distance statistics.

“A database of pin locations does not exist in golf, so we are building the world’s first and most robust set of accurate data on pin placements and putting for the amateur golfer,” says Game Golf CEO John McGuire. “We’ve put the control for pin placement back in the users’ hands. The big deal is that the next players to play the course on the same day will see automatically accurate pin placements and can truly plan their game strategies.”

and

New Pin Placement Feature:
The first advancement not only helps golfers track more accurate putting stats from specific pin placements, but also helps other golfers who will play the same course on the same day. Using GAME GOLF LIVE or the GAME GOLF App, the new Pin Placement feature allows golfers to select the edit button on their phones, zoom in on each green and drag the pin to its precise location, resulting in putting stats that are 100 percent accurate on every green.

"We track more data on more golfers on more golf courses worldwide than any other company," added McGuire. "A database of pin locations does not exist in golf, so we are building the world's first and most robust set of accurate data on pin placements and putting for the amateur golfer. With this advancement, we've put the control for pin placement back in the users' hands. The big deal is that the next players to play the course on the same day will see automatically accurate pin placements and can truly plan their game strategies." The new feature also allows for precise adjustment of ball locations on the green relative to the pin, further enhancing the accuracy of the data. The pin placement feature is currently available on iOS (iPhone) platforms and coming very soon to Android systems.

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1 hour ago, dsc123 said:

Sorry if I missed it, but I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet:

Hi, Dan. There was a brief thread on that here (easy to miss as the volume of topics can get pretty high around at times):

I just played a round today at a fairly popular county-run course (Twin Lakes), and I only see a couple GG rounds there per week. Surprised me, as I thought I might see a few per day or something. Since I play in the mornings typically, I doubt I'll have the luxury of a pin being marked prior to my playing that hole!

After 4 rounds entered, here's how I stack up against 15-handicappers:

GG gives me an 18 index, so let's see.... 6 strokes lost in driving and putting. 2.7 gained in approaches/short game.  That's 3.3 lost compared to a 15-handicap. Math works out.

Also seems about right- my irons have been decent, as has my play around the greens. Driving erratic (too many penalties), and I've lost focus on way too many first putts to give me too many three-putts.

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35 minutes ago, RandallT said:

After 4 rounds entered, here's how I stack up against 15-handicappers:

GG gives me an 18 index, so let's see.... 6 strokes lost in driving and putting. 2.7 gained in approaches/short game.  That's 3.3 lost compared to a 15-handicap. Math works out.

Also seems about right- my irons have been decent, as has my play around the greens. Driving erratic (too many penalties), and I've lost focus on way too many first putts to give me too many three-putts.

Interesting to see how our numbers compare/contrast (even though you've only got data for four rounds so far).  GG has me at a handicap of 19.3.  Here's how GG lists me against a 15 handicapper:

Your irons are a bit longer than mine, which could explain the differences in our approach numbers.  But your drives are also longer than mine, so I find it odd that your "off the tee" number is worse than mine.

It shows both of us as needing improvement in our putting; but I still wonder if I am really that much worse than a 15 handicapper.  I'm averaging 32 putts per round.  I know SG also includes distance in the calculation, but my first putt is usually more than 10 feet or so and I usually make the second putt--does a 15-capper do that much better?

I know that you understand the SG calculations much better than I do, so I'll be interested to see how you view the SG putting as you get more of your own rounds in the system.

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Here's something I just looked at, how I'm trending.  All rounds (56 rounds) vs. last 10 vs last 5.

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5 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

But your drives are also longer than mine, so I find it odd that your "off the tee" number is worse than mine.

I'll do some digging around to see if I can note any brilliant insights in the differences in our games, but for now, I'll say this for your comment above:

Erik and I spoke with Game Golf, and they confirmed that penalty strokes that you mark down for your tee shot will reflect in your strokes gained. For example, on my 4th hole today:

That was 2 strokes lost right there, plus whatever the 225yd drive to the fairway was worth against their standard 15-handicapper.

I had one round after a major swing change, where I think I put 7 tee shots OB or in a hazard like that. So my "Career" stats will need some time to absorb that awful day.

I think that mostly answers why my length might be longer, but the strokes gained worse.

I'll ponder some of your other points and snoop around. It's fun to compare people of similar scores but different game styles like this. Lots of ways to arrive at the same score! ("more than one way to make a par")

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46 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Here's something I just looked at, how I'm trending.  All rounds (56 rounds) vs. last 10 vs last 5.

Did you change your driver roughly 10 rounds ago? If so, it looks like that helped your off the tee stats by more than a full stoke!

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18 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Did you change your driver roughly 10 rounds ago? If so, it looks like that helped your off the tee stats by more than a full stoke!

Nope, 5 rounds ago.  About 10 rounds ago I started overspeed training (before the new driver).  Overspeed gave me a lot more distance, the new driver gave me a little more distance and it seems better accuracy.

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1 hour ago, Missouri Swede said:

I still wonder if I am really that much worse than a 15 handicapper.  I'm averaging 32 putts per round.  I know SG also includes distance in the calculation, but my first putt is usually more than 10 feet or so and I usually make the second putt--does a 15-capper do that much better?

Re: putting. I can only analyze against the data the Broadie released for PGA players, so Game Golf is cool the way it is building up its database of various skill levels. So I'm not sure I can ever say how you stack up against a 15-handicapper, but read on for what I can tell you.

Here is how you're stacking up against pros for the last 27 holes I see on Game Golf (spoiler: I think their system is decent and they're likely correct in identifying putting as area for improvement, if these 27 holes are representative):

Ignore the "Par" row, but the "Strokes Gained/Lost" row of the scorecard gives you a feel about how you gain or lose partial strokes for each hole. Three putts are typically the most damaging, but it's also surprising how a missed 9-footer, for example, can hurt. See your #2 at Gross National. By missing that 9-foot putt (we all do, a lot!), you lose 0.44 strokes. Pros are pretty good in that range.

So while I don't know how 15-handicappers stack up exactly, I will say that for 30 or so rounds that we analyzed vs pros similarly for 90s/100s players here on TST last season, the overall average for us was 5 strokes lost per round putting.

In the above 27 holes I transcribed for you from Game Golf, I have you losing about 6 or 7 strokes to pros. So that's 1 or 2 worse than folks like rkim, billchao, rfkfreak, fairwayCY, among others (who were part of those 30 rounds analyzed last year).

It could be that these two rounds I picked above were bad putting rounds for you, and you might average out to 5 strokes per round vs. pros like many others (or even better than that). In fact, I did see quite a bit of variation in our putting strokes gained/lost from round to round. Some days we have it, others we don't. I write that because you had written that your first putt is usually "10 feet or so"- so maybe these rounds were longer than your typical round? These holes, the initial putts looked often outside that, just from skimming the "First Shot" row. Unless "10 feet or so" includes anything less than 20

But as I see it right now by this small sample set and my own putting, Game Golf is likely pretty on target with recognizing our poor putting, and you and I could get our putting better. Overall, I think the Game Golf folks have a solid system that they are honing constantly (particularly as they improve the initial distances of putts and pin locations), and I'd tend to believe them in this case- unless I see other evidence to strongly contradict it.

The bright side is that putting is easier for us to improve than the full swing.   I feel sorry for the guys who are gaining strokes for putting on 15-handicappers, because they don't have any low-hanging fruit to improve!!

On a different topic, cool use of the progress feature, @No Mulligans. Nice improvement!

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19 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Nope, 5 rounds ago.  About 10 rounds ago I started overspeed training (before the new driver).  Overspeed gave me a lot more distance, the new driver gave me a little more distance and it seems better accuracy.

Nice! Keep up that over speed training!

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Wow! Thanks for the response.

2 hours ago, RandallT said:

Ignore the "Par" row, but the "Strokes Gained/Lost" row of the scorecard gives you a feel about how you gain or lose partial strokes for each hole. Three putts are typically the most damaging, but it's also surprising how a missed 9-footer, for example, can hurt. See your #2 at Gross National. By missing that 9-foot putt (we all do, a lot!), you lose 0.44 strokes. Pros are pretty good in that range.

Seeing what I consider an "acceptable miss" for me (since I'm currently happy with a 2-putt from 9 feet), shows how much work I still have to do.

2 hours ago, RandallT said:

So while I don't know how 15-handicappers stack up exactly, I will say that for 30 or so rounds that we analyzed vs pros similarly for 90s/100s players here on TST last season, the overall average for us was 5 strokes lost per round putting.

In the above 27 holes I transcribed for you from Game Golf, I have you losing about 6 or 7 strokes to pros. So that's 1 or 2 worse than folks like rkim, billchao, rfkfreak, fairwayCY, among others (who were part of those 30 rounds analyzed last year).

It could be that these two rounds I picked above were bad putting rounds for you, and you might average out to 5 strokes per round vs. pros like many others (or even better than that). In fact, I did see quite a bit of variation in our putting strokes gained/lost from round to round.

My putting wasn't at its best the last couple of rounds. I could give reasons/excuses, but they were what they were. Just looking at my "last round vs scratch" shows how bad my putting was yesterday,

compared with expanding it to anything over 5 rounds, where it drops into the 5.something range:

2 hours ago, RandallT said:

I write that because you had written that your first putt is usually "10 feet or so"- so maybe these rounds were longer than your typical round? These holes, the initial putts looked often outside that, just from skimming the "First Shot" row. Unless "10 feet or so" includes anything less than 20

Yeah, I said that my first putt is usually more than 10 feet or so.  I only meant that I'm usually not hitting my approach shots close to the pin--I'm usually on the green more than 10 feet from the hole (where a pro has about a 50-50 chance of a 1-putt).  So being beyond 10 feet, my expectation is that since a pro is 50:50 (and worse, as distance goes up), I likely won't make those putts.

3 hours ago, RandallT said:

But as I see it right now by this small sample set and my own putting, Game Golf is likely pretty on target with recognizing our poor putting, and you and I could get our putting better. Overall, I think the Game Golf folks have a solid system that they are honing constantly (particularly as they improve the initial distances of putts and pin locations), and I'd tend to believe them in this case- unless I see other evidence to strongly contradict it.

The bright side is that putting is easier for us to improve than the full swing.   I feel sorry for the guys who are gaining strokes for putting on 15-handicappers, because they don't have any low-hanging fruit to improve!!

As always, your insight is appreciated. I've got more work to do, and an attitude to adjust--I'm setting my expectations too low.  Thanks a bunch for taking a look at this.

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7 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

As always, your insight is appreciated. I've got more work to do, and an attitude to adjust--I'm setting my expectations too low.  Thanks a bunch for taking a look at this.

I think low expectations in putting is my issue too. I've shown myself over and over that I can improve, but I tell myself I'm just fine. Remember that "con myself" thread? I make way too few mid-range putts, and three-putt just a tad too often.

But still, the majority of my strokes to gain is in the full swing, and that seems much tougher to me to improve- so I put my effort there. If I were to get serious about putting, I think it'd be an Aimpoint class and a custom fitting for a real putter.

7 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Yeah, I said that my first putt is usually more than 10 feet or so.  I only meant that I'm usually not hitting my approach shots close to the pin--I'm usually on the green more than 10 feet from the hole (where a pro has about a 50-50 chance of a 1-putt).  So being beyond 10 feet, my expectation is that since a pro is 50:50 (and worse, as distance goes up), I likely won't make those putts.

Oops, I misread. I thought you were implying that you were playing lots of short game shots, so you were close to the pin on many holes. My bad- I was reading too fast.

You're right. I guess when you think about it, it's much better (Putting SG stat-wise) to have all 18-foot putts than 9-foot putts and two-putt them, because pros make a lot more of the 9-footers. If your first putt is longer, you lose fewer strokes, and the difference between outside and inside 10 feet is a lot!

Based on what you wrote about these rounds being probably a bit worse than your usual round, I'd guess we're similar putters (which is what your original post on the topic said). We lose 2.5 or so to 15-handicappers, and surely we can improve that.

How about a challenge- first one to get to less than 1.0 strokes lost to a 15-handicapper over a 5-round span? Not sure what we win, but bragging rights. (side note/OT- the challenges in Game Golf need improvement)

7 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Seeing what I consider an "acceptable miss" for me (since I'm currently happy with a 2-putt from 9 feet), shows how much work I still have to do.

Exactly. I feel the same. I really need to bear down and be more confident. It's almost like I feel like it's a fluke if I make something outside 5 or 6 feet. I need to expect to make one or two mid-range putts per round- to wipe out the partial strokes lost on all the misses.

I think I putt very defensively and just hope not to three putt. Not sure if it's my read, line, or speed- but I would guess it's all three.

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So, I've been watching my data since it became available.  I love using the benchmark tool to compare myself to others of similar ability.

I find both the Strokes Gained data and the Benchmark data to be pretty good representations of where I'm struggling.

In the 57 rounds I've played and posted to Game Golf, it's showing me as having a 21.2 Game Golf handicap.  Meanwhile, my true index is 16.4 but likely to rise soon as I'll be losing my 8.9 differential from earlier this season.

All Rounds

Last 10 Rounds

Last 5 Rounds

My tee game has improved slightly, but that's just the result of decreasing penalties taken from the tee.  Where I've really struggled recently is putting, which is odd because that's where I've put a majority of my focus over the last month, but I find myself with more three-putts than ever.  Maybe because of the variety of courses I've been playing.  Some have been really fast while others have been really slow... and I've played a rotation of Bent Grass and Bermuda Grass.  Oddly enough, I enter my data on a strokes gained calculator that's supposed to be based on handicap (http://www.golfrankingstats.com/strokes-gained-calculator/) and, for the year... I've gained almost 9 strokes through my 26 rounds I've played this season.

I love the data, but I spend almost too much time looking at it.  I get lost in it at times and then come up with other pieces I want to compare, so I go back and enter my data from prior years (I've got every scorecard from every round I've played since 2004 in my office).

It's fun to see where I was and where I am.  It makes me want to get more serious and start lessons, but it's not something I've done as of yet.  Maybe in the offseason.

CY

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Pretty exciting stuff. Ever since I've started focusing on the new drills to fix my priority piece things have started trending in a great direction.

If I can keep at this I'll definitely hit my aggressive goal for the year of hitting low double digit HC.

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I know I've putted TERRIBLY the last three rounds...but this made me laugh out loud:

The first of those rounds was the worst putting performance I've ever had.  By the fourth or fifth hole, I was just freezing up over putts and fidgeting and could never get comfortable.

I haven't been able to shake it...just awful.  Practicing, I'm fine...on the course, terrible.

I'm playing in a scramble tomorrow for work, so I'm hoping the lack of pressure there helps me relax a bit and get over this.  Keep in mind that 15-handicap is almost 10 strokes below my actual index, so if I can get the putting straightened out I have a good chance for rapid improvement.

#### Putting

Practice your medium putts between 10-33 feet to lower your score by up to 3.5 strokes per round.

What does that mean? Am I supposed to hole some putts over 10 feet or something.

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