Changes to Handicap System for 2016 Released

[cipher]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

For individuals who want to keep an official handicap but only play 2 or 3 competitions per year, a tournament only handicap would be impractical.  Not all of us play in a club with weekly comps.  There are more public than private course golfers in the US.  Even the difficulty of simply establishing a handicap - you can't play in a tournament if you don't have a handicap, but you can only enter tournament scores for handicap.  You have the classic catch 22 issue.  Making the player play the competitions but it doesn't count until he has enough scores for handicap, that's going to raise even more complaints.

I don't follow the catch 22 issue, how do they handle that in other parts of the world?  Would they not just have initial low level tournaments that you could play in that would help generate a handicap?  I am just saying that the tournament only system is one that actually does the better job with accountability.  I agree with you that it would raise more complaints, to have it tournament only. But this new attempt to bring the system closer to the rest of the world is a very poor one.  

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

There is no reason to keep a handicap if you don't compete anyway.  For tracking stats it's a false indicator because it only tracks your good rounds.  Makes more sense to follow a complete average of all scores if you are honestly interested in tracking game improvement.

Maybe in some ways.  However I think a handicap is a better general indicator of how your game compares to the average golfer out there and is a benchmark for consistency.  I was using game golf for tracking stats.  For me the new system would not allow me to change my index for years.  I did have some plans to play in a couple tournaments and now that is pretty much pointless.

35 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

According to an article I read (on here, I think) yesterday, it's all about "peer review."  If that is the case, I think that they are off base here and picking the wrong battlefield for this fight.  For those of us who have handicaps at public clubs, most of us don't have a group of peers that would pay attention to our scores anyway.  I have a small handful of buddies that I golf with, and none of us have our handicaps established through the same clubs.  Further, even if we did, we don't follow each other to the posting computer and watch with a keen eye over each others shoulders to make certain that we post and post accurately.

Heck, we don't even go to the computers.  Do courses even have those anymore?  Every round I've posted in the last several years has been online.  Usually right after I leave the course on my phone, but sometimes at home.

None of my buddies are checking up on me and making sure that I posted exactly what I scored either.  Hell, when all is said and done after 18 holes, a lot of times, we don't even know what the others scored, nor do we care if we weren't betting.

Also of note is that the rule simply just says players playing alone can't post.  So when I play 9 holes with my 6 year old son, those count, but @cipher's when he's playing alone don't?  That makes no sense.

I don't play alone, so this rule doesn't affect me, however, it does in the sense that I'm offended that the USGA seems to feel like we are all cheaters when we're not being watched.  That is what this rule says to me.  An analogy would be that if you ever hit a ball into the woods, you aren't allowed to go look for it or play it without a playing partner, because hey, you might cheat.  "Well, your partner was behind that mound for that last shot so this hole can't count.  Take par plus.  Sorry."  I thought this game was all about integrity and honesty and such?

QFT

[Fourputt]

29 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

According to an article I read (on here, I think) yesterday, it's all about "peer review."  If that is the case, I think that they are off base here and picking the wrong battlefield for this fight.  For those of us who have handicaps at public clubs, most of us don't have a group of peers that would pay attention to our scores anyway.  I have a small handful of buddies that I golf with, and none of us have our handicaps established through the same clubs.  Further, even if we did, we don't follow each other to the posting computer and watch with a keen eye over each others shoulders to make certain that we post and post accurately.

Heck, we don't even go to the computers.  Do courses even have those anymore?  Every round I've posted in the last several years has been online.  Usually right after I leave the course on my phone, but sometimes at home.

None of my buddies are checking up on me and making sure that I posted exactly what I scored either.  Hell, when all is said and done after 18 holes, a lot of times, we don't even know what the others scored, nor do we care if we weren't betting.

Also of note is that the rule simply just says players playing alone can't post.  So when I play 9 holes with my 6 year old son, those count, but @cipher's when he's playing alone don't?  That makes no sense.

I don't play alone, so this rule doesn't affect me, however, it does in the sense that I'm offended that the USGA seems to feel like we are all cheaters when we're not being watched.  That is what this rule says to me.  An analogy would be that if you ever hit a ball into the woods, you aren't allowed to go look for it or play it without a playing partner, because hey, you might cheat.  "Well, your partner was behind that mound for that last shot so this hole can't count.  Take par plus.  Sorry."  I thought this game was all about integrity and honesty and such?

Your buddies don't follow you and watch you post because you probably don't give them any reason to be suspicious.  If you did, then there are ways to check up on you, or report any questions to your handicap committee.  And yes, many courses do have computers on site for posting.  

The Men's club I belong to has up to 250 members and all tournaments are set up using the software on the our GHIN computer, and all tournament scores are posted by the tournament committee for that tournament.  The Handicap committee monitors all of the player's handicaps, including scores returned for casual rounds (regardless of whether they were posted on site or over the internet), and acts appropriately when necessary.

I still see this as just a start towards a greater change.  If the USGA and the R&A, and the other handicap agencies really do join up in the next 2 or 3 years, the system will see further modifications, and I expect to see a lot more bitching about it.  Every time they change anything, people bitch.  I just shrug and accept it.  I'm not going to stop playing, and I'm not going to stop playing tournaments, so.......

[No Mulligans]

3 hours ago, Fourputt said:

There is no reason to keep a handicap if you don't compete anyway.  For tracking stats it's a false indicator because it only tracks your good rounds.  Makes more sense to follow a complete average of all scores if you are honestly interested in tracking game improvement.

A HI does help my foursome for our weekly bet, loser buys breakfast or lunch.  Admittedly, we could manage without the HI and just give strokes from the seat of our pants, but it wouldn't be as accurate.

[DrvFrShow]

Also of note is that if I hook a friend of mine in to "going for a hike" on the golf course with me, and even if she doesn't play at all, my round counts because technically I didn't play alone, even though she has no comprehension of the rules of golf and was there for a nice walk and sunshine. Or if she played, sucked at it because she doesn't know how to play and used a footwedge quite frequently. My round would count. But playing alone by strict ROG wouldn't. 

I've played with perfect strangers who don't play by ROG whom I'll never see again and who do not carry official handicaps, and my round would count. 

But playing that round alone, my round no longer counts. 

A cheater will score a 4 on a hole and write down a 5. They won't do it on every hole, just a few throughout the round so there's maybe 5 or strokes added to the entire round distributed throughout. They'll keep a scorecard for the entire group so that there's more names on the card so that there's verification that they played with more people for their club. Maybe they'll even make up fictitious names of players to add to the card and mark them down on their card in their car since the USGA doesn't require that everyone be a member of the USGA to play golf, and doing so would require an act of Congress. 

Scores can still be entered on one's phone. Courses aren't going to hire extra people to review scorecards. That isn't happening. This rule will not stop cheaters. 

[Fourputt]

25 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

Also of note is that if I hook a friend of mine in to "going for a hike" on the golf course with me, and even if she doesn't play at all, my round counts because technically I didn't play alone, even though she has no comprehension of the rules of golf and was there for a nice walk and sunshine. Or if she played, sucked at it because she doesn't know how to play and used a footwedge quite frequently. My round would count. But playing alone by strict ROG wouldn't. 

I've played with perfect strangers who don't play by ROG whom I'll never see again and who do not carry official handicaps, and my round would count. 

But playing that round alone, my round no longer counts. 

A cheater will score a 4 on a hole and write down a 5. They won't do it on every hole, just a few throughout the round so there's maybe 5 or strokes added to the entire round distributed throughout. They'll keep a scorecard for the entire group so that there's more names on the card so that there's verification that they played with more people for their club. Maybe they'll even make up fictitious names of players to add to the card and mark them down on their card in their car since the USGA doesn't require that everyone be a member of the USGA to play golf, and doing so would require an act of Congress. 

Scores can still be entered on one's phone. Courses aren't going to hire extra people to review scorecards. That isn't happening. This rule will not stop cheaters. 

Rules aren't there to stop cheaters.  That's the job of the competition or handicap committee.  Rules just define the game or spell out processes and procedures, and delineate penalties for breaching those procedures.  The player can choose to adhere to the rules or ignore them.   There is nothing that the creator of the rules can do about that.

Players who choose to skirt the rules will always find a way to do so if there is no oversight.  If you compete against players who carry a handicap outside of a well run organization, then you take the chance of going up against cheaters.  I would find a way to research any club I joined to find out how they operated their competitions.  

I was lucky enough to start right out with a public course men's club (tournament club, not a league) that does it right.  We have a handicap committee that oversees all player handicaps (both tournament and casual rounds), and each tournament has a committee that manages the competition.  I didn't join a league, because leagues are a total crap shoot.  Some are well run, others are mismanaged to a point of sheer stupidity as far as any actual adherence to real golf is concerned.  If you don't check it out before you join, then you get what you get.

By the way, most players I know are more likely to score a 6 and write down a 4.  I don't mind playing against that handicap. 

[Golfingdad]

25 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I still see this as just a start towards a greater change.  If the USGA and the R&A, and the other handicap agencies really do join up in the next 2 or 3 years, the system will see further modifications, and I expect to see a lot more bitching about it.  Every time they change anything, people bitch.  I just shrug and accept it.  I'm not going to stop playing, and I'm not going to stop playing tournaments, so.......

I'm usually with you on this - I like changes and attempts to move forward, and I normally just accept it and don't care.  And I think that the idea that we go towards one international system, that perhaps gives people handicaps based mostly or solely on tournament rounds, is a good idea.

This particular rule, on its own though, just doesn't make sense to me.

[Fourputt]

16 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm usually with you on this - I like changes and attempts to move forward, and I normally just accept it and don't care.  And I think that the idea that we go towards one international system, that perhaps gives people handicaps based mostly or solely on tournament rounds, is a good idea.

This particular rule, on its own though, just doesn't make sense to me.

I look at it like this.  This is a small, minuscule change, that doesn't even have oversight to regulate it and it still is raising all of this hullabaloo.  The patter will quiet down in a few months and nobody will mention it any more.  It's no different from the groove rule or the anchored putting rule.  People bitch, then they go play golf.  If the bigger change comes that does require returned scores to be attested, then it's just another little step, more bitching, the life goes on.  I see it coming, so this one isn't even remotely worth getting excited about.

[iacas]

18 hours ago, cipher said:

This bothers me a lot.  As someone who normally plays rounds very early in the morning during weekdays and almost always alone as most people don't want to tee off at 5:30-6am, this pretty much sucks.  I hardly ever play on weekends as that is when I spend my time with my family.  For the maybe 3-5 rounds per year I play with other people it won't be worth it to keep a handicap anymore.  Brilliant idea USGA.  I won't be renewing my handicap or a membership.

Feels a touch dramatic.

Look, the purpose of a handicap is so that you can play against other people. So it follows that it's logical that you create a handicap based on rounds in which… you play against other people.

If you want to measure your handicap to measure your progress, then keep doing so. It's not like the formula is a secret. Just look at what your GG handicap says, after all - you don't even have to do any of the math if you don't want to.

Plus, I think it has more to do with this than we're realizing right now…

 

[imsys0042]

I was talking with my neighbor about this.   I mentioned that I didn't like this because I do have a large percentage of rounds where i play by myself.   I feel it could put me higher than I should be and people will complain.

His response "Who cares?"   and "Then maybe people will play with you more to keep you honest.  ha ha".

I'd prefer my official number to be representative of every round I play, but I can keep my real handicap in a spreadsheet with the formula.  That also means I can keep it off season as well! 

[cipher]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

Feels a touch dramatic.

I figured you would, and that is fine.  As someone who worked their tail off for four years to try and reach certain goals, I have some issues with it and the additional time it would take me to get to where I would like to be with a few posted rounds per year.  Unless I decided to join some kind of league or something it just won't be worth it to keep a handicap.  

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

Look, the purpose of a handicap is so that you can play against other people. So it follows that it's logical that you create a handicap based on rounds in which… you play against other people.

Sure, and it still does very little for posting integrity.  They have some greater plan moving towards 2018, fine.  The purpose as far as I cared about the most was potential qualification purposes.

Dramatic exit.  

[iacas]

Qualifying by playing alone doesn't serve you either. Play a few tournaments, score well, and your handicap will be where it should be @cipher.

[natureboy]

9 hours ago, cipher said:

This rule will do essentially nothing to stop the dishonest including sandbaggers or vanity cap golfers. It really only affects those of us who either have to or prefer to play alone and in a very negative way.  I would wager that number is much more than people think.

Playing solo rounds certainly includes me too. However, as some say, I can still track my scores and personal progress with an unofficial handicap as I do. I will likely continue to be a USGA member mostly for the current rules book and the bodacious swag. I mean a USGA bag tag is pretty swanky .

Cheaters will probably still find a way to cheat, but this rule will make it a touch easier for an active & engaged rules committee and fellow club members to nullify some of their potential edge - particularly with 'notorious' sandbaggers or hustlers. May also help protect a few sanctioned tournament slots for more deserving players. I think it's really about 'serious' players and 'serious' golf clubs where there is more concern about 'level' competition. Of course the HCP system already favors lower HCP players due to the 'bonus for excellence' so 'level' is a relative term here.

Seems to be a reasonable compromise between the old U.S. system and CONGU which was overly strict in not allowing any non-tournament scores which made it much harder to have an accurate current HCP.

9 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Just a couple of comments.  First, I don't know the reasoning behind this rule change, but I've read suggestions that this could be a first step towards unifying the handicap systems worldwide.

Second, a functioning handicap committee will probably be able to look at a tee sheet and determine whether you started off as a single, or as part of a larger group.  The committee has the responsibility, and the authority, to delete solo rounds from your record.  At the very minimum, the committee should contact you to verify that the rounds are indeed "postable" under the rules.  I realize that not every handicap is reviewed by a committee, but that's what the rules say should happen.

I think this rule somewhat enables an active committee to blunt the edge of a potential advantage for players / members who are suspected as notorious sandbaggers or vanity cappers entering their tournaments (many of which include pooled prize money). That would seem fairer to me if the HCP system itself did not give a built-in edge to better players. Isn't the whole idea of a HCP competition supposed to be about equal competition on the day? If you want to identify the most skillful performance for the day, just compete on strokes with no HCPs.

8 hours ago, Pete said:

I agree. In the UK, our handicap is based on tournament scores ONLY. I play plenty of rounds on my own, and plenty with others not in a competition. We still keep score, but it doesn't change my handicap. It puts pressure on the tournament rounds but more importantly, it means you can rely on the handicaps of competitors because you know the scores used to determine their index, were under full rules of golf, scored and signed by another competitor. I would not enter a tournament if the other players handicaps were self assessed. No chance.

It would make more sense for the USGA to have just added a 'tournament handicap' option so you can all keep your own self assessed handicaps so you have an index that reflects your general golfing ability, but those who want to play in tournaments, use their tournament handicap.

I like your 'official' & 'unofficial' HCP idea. It might even offer some perspective about one's game under pressure. I suspect the rules bodies figured it would just muddy the waters as well as create an extra layer of administrative burden...so compromise between the two systems was easier. I think golf clubs for serious golfers is slightly more of the culture in the the U.K. & Ireland than here so you may have more regular tournaments than us even if they are still infrequent.

8 hours ago, DeadMan said:

This rule is dumb. It's aimed at sandbaggers and extreme vanity cappers (probably those who do it to get into USGA events), but it's not going to have an effect on either of those. Sandbaggers can still sandbag if they're playing with other people, and vanity cappers can still vanity cap if they're playing with other people. So what does this rule actually do? I don't get it at all.

The other issue is, how will clubs police this? I know my men's club, which is not at a private club, will have no way of policing this. No one is going to care if you post single rounds, either, unless you're a sandbagger or extreme vanity capper. I really don't get the point.

I wouldn't be surprised if suspected sandbaggers and vanity cappers at serious clubs that had a committee would just wipe out the solo start rounds as @DaveP043 says above. Also, they might find they get some last minute company at the 1st tee if they continue to try to post 'inflated' or 'deflated' solo rounds. That said, I would expect it's easy to slightly mishit a lot of shots even during an accompanied round if you are a committed sandbagger. Harder (but not impossible) to post a vanity score with others actively watching. It just might be a touch harder to have a few really bad (or really good) accompanied rounds followed by a sudden miracle in a tournament without being a more obvious cheater who will then attract more scrutiny.

[Fourputt]

11 minutes ago, natureboy said:

The other issue is, how will clubs police this? I know my men's club, which is not at a private club, will have no way of policing this. No one is going to care if you post single rounds, either, unless you're a sandbagger or extreme vanity capper. I really don't get the point.

My Men's Club is at a public course, but we have an active, involved handicap committee.  There are at least 2 levels of sandbagging protection.  First is peer pressure.  I can look up the handicaps of any player in the club, and I can certainly tell if his returned casual scores have a significant variance from his committee entered tournament scores.  

Second - If I can do that, then the handicap committee can do it too.  They can lock his handicap to tournament scores if they choose to do so.  If your men's club doesn't take some sort of action to prevent sandbagging, then they need some lessons in managing a golf club.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Qualifying by playing alone doesn't serve you either. Play a few tournaments, score well, and your handicap will be where it should be @cipher.

 

2 hours ago, cipher said:

I figured you would, and that is fine.  As someone who worked their tail off for four years to try and reach certain goals, I have some issues with it and the additional time it would take me to get to where I would like to be with a few posted rounds per year.  Unless I decided to join some kind of league or something it just won't be worth it to keep a handicap.  

Sure, and it still does very little for posting integrity.  They have some greater plan moving towards 2018, fine.  The purpose as far as I cared about the most was potential qualification purposes.

Dramatic exit.  

Qualification for what?  The US Open?  US Amateur?  Seems to me that the best way to practice playing with other golfers is to actually play with other golfers.  It's also the best way to post representative scores.  If you play alone because you play better that way, then you don't actually have a representative handicap and you'll never go beyond qualifying, because you don't actually play to what is essentially a vanity handicap.  

[natureboy]

10 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

My Men's Club is at a public course, but we have an active, involved handicap committee.  There are at least 2 levels of sandbagging protection.  First is peer pressure.  I can look up the handicaps of any player in the club, and I can certainly tell if his returned casual scores have a significant variance from his committee entered tournament scores.

Second - If I can do that, then the handicap committee can do it too.  They can lock his handicap to tournament scores if they choose to do so.  If your men's club doesn't take some sort of action to prevent sandbagging, then they need some lessons in managing a golf club.

You quoted an embedded quote from my post. I think this is a response to @DeadMan - not me.

That said, I think in the U.S. (but not positive) that public membership courses represent a smaller portion of golfers than those using public municipal courses. I'm not sure how active HCP committees are at municipal courses - just don't know. But perhaps the membership (public & private) courses include a higher portion of official USGA HCP holders, though?

Edited January 15, 2016 by natureboy

[Golfingdad]

11 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

If your men's club doesn't take some sort of action to prevent sandbagging, then they need some lessons in managing a golf club.

Amen.  I'm on the outside looking in here because I don't play in any handicapped tournaments, but I hear stories from people (my brother is one) who do, and this is the problem they have.  It's a small enough, close knit enough, private club, so I shouldn't have to listen to you guys complain about the same guy winning all of the monthly tournaments because he magically shoots 4 or 5 under his cap only when it counts.

Of course, its always followed up with political talk about club members stature and wealth and all kinds of other crap that apparently comes into play.  It doesn't sound like my cup of tea, I can tell you that. :)

[Fourputt]

7 minutes ago, natureboy said:

You quoted an embedded quote from my post. I think this is a response to @DeadMan - not me.

That said, I think in the U.S. (but not positive) that public membership courses represent a smaller portion of golfers than those using public municipal courses. I'm not sure how active HCP committees are at municipal courses - just don't know. But perhaps the membership (public & private) courses include a higher portion of official USGA HCP holders, though?

Memberships may have a larger proportion of handicap holders simply because it comes with the membership in some, but not all cases.  Membership at the closest local 18 hole course is solely for green fees - no other perks.  

I think that the automatic handicap is more of a factor with private clubs, and public course golfers mostly carrying an official handicap only when needed for a tournament club or league.  My home public course doesn't offer any memberships, but the Men's Club has 250 members, and there are at least 2 women's leagues which are handicapped under USGA rules as well.  That makes a handicap clientele that is well represented, but still less than 10% of the players who use the course.

[Golfingdad]

18 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Qualification for what?  The US Open?  US Amateur?  Seems to me that the best way to practice playing with other golfers is to actually play with other golfers.  It's also the best way to post representative scores.  If you play alone because you play better that way, then you don't actually have a representative handicap and you'll never go beyond qualifying, because you don't actually play to what is essentially a vanity handicap.  

Actually, this is a good point too.  Granted, in some peoples cases, like @cipher, they play alone not because they don't like to play with others, but rather because they can only find the time to play when others aren't willing.  Also, I believe by qualification purposes, he simply meant on paper.  He has aspirations to play scratch tournaments (as do I) and you need a sub whatever to be allowed to sign up for those.

But that said, I agree with you that solo rounds are probably not the best way to prep for tournaments anyway.  Too much comfort there.

[natureboy]

43 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

they play alone not because they don't like to play with others, but rather because they can only find the time to play when others aren't willing.

That is an excellent point. Easier to grab a window of slow work and good weather flying solo.