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World Handicap System Now Out (2020)


iacas

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15 minutes ago, iacas said:

A GHIN membership (or whatever) is often included in membership to a club.

I don't think many golfers serious enough to WANT a handicap are sweating the $25 to $40 it typically costs them.

And, yeah, this is one of the ways the USGA make a little money. They have expenses, too. They make money from membership dues (not much), the U.S. Open, and things like this. They SPEND a lot of money, and AWARD a lot of money, too.

I agree about serious golfers,.... however, below is the exact quote, that caused me to rant ..  the high cost for the person who does not play enough is not being answered by simply changing how HCPs are determined.

“For some time, we’ve heard golfers say, ‘I’m not good enough to have a handicap,’ or ‘I don’t play enough to have a handicap,’” USGA executive director Mike Davis said. “We want to make the right decisions now to encourage a more welcoming and social game.”

Last year the USGA had $199M in income and $358M in total assets.... so they are not a shoe string organization that is barely getting by.  Thye added $43M to their Net Asset total.   And you are correct about Membership Dues, they made only $14.5M of the almost $200M of income from Dues.

 

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7 minutes ago, JuanTheGolfer said:

I agree about serious golfers,.... however, below is the exact quote, that caused me to rant ..  the high cost for the person who does not play enough is not being answered by simply changing how HCPs are determined.

I don't know what to tell you. I don't think handicaps are going to do those things he's said, at any price. I think that people who have handicaps will get them, and that the $25 to $40 is hardly a barrier to entry there.

I think the USGA is blowing a bit of smoke there. Or maybe it's not even all about the USGA and the US/Mexico, but about other countries where the barrier to entry is higher - like in the UK where it's tough to get a handicap unless you play in their "competition" rounds.

Also, in the U.S., other groups can and do charge less, too.

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The price isn't a problem even for a cheapskate like me.

For my $40, I not only get the handicap service. I also get free pizza at the association meetings and events, a subscription to Golf Digest and, last year, I got a beautiful Kittyhawk Golf Course hat. 

Bar-goon.

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18 hours ago, JuanTheGolfer said:

One of the comments was that the person does not play enough golf to have a HCP.   The Florida Golf Association charges $40 a year to have your GHIN HCP.   So why would anybody but a serious golfer want to pay an additional $40 to just have a HCP??   MAYBE they can find a vendor who could pull all the systems together and establish a MUCH cheaper system so people want to use it.

My club dues include the GHIN HCP, however, they still pay $25 for it.

Get me an equitable, world-wide HCP system that only costs $10 a year at most and you will see a lot more people getting a HCP.  

Rant over....maybe

There is obviously a fiscal point where it makes sense to have a handicap. If you are casual, it may not make sense. But if you are in a league or routinely play friends for money, then it may make sense to have one.

I have an official HC and I play in a league. But only a few of the guys keeps and official HC. We have a quota system based on the league course, but it would be better if we all just had HC and used them. 

I also play with three other close friends, who are also in that league, by ourselves. But instead of just using our HC (they don't have one) we have a different system based on both the league scores and our other outings. It's pretty silly. They should just buck up and get a HC.

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On 2/20/2018 at 4:43 PM, NJpatbee said:

I read it differently:

A limit of Net Double Bogey on the maximum hole score (for handicapping purposes only).

So an 8 on a par 4 would be posted as a 6 for handicap purposes.  I could be wrong...

depends on the handicap... So if you are a 36 for instance a Net Double Bogey on a par 4 is an 8. An 18 it would be a 7. Scratch it would be a 6.

 

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11 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

depends on the handicap... So if you are a 36 for instance a Net Double Bogey on a par 4 is an 8. An 18 it would be a 7. Scratch it would be a 6.

And if you are a 54, a 9.

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

And if you are a 54, a 9.

Forgot that one, Erik.

Are the USGA and R&A going to use the Handicap/Stroke Index for individual holes like they do now? Or will they have to re-rate courses?

Isn't the slope rating just the difference between the scratch rating (the number you see on the scorecard), and the bogey rating (which you don't) with that difference multiplied by 5.381 for men and 4.xxx for women?

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12 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Are the USGA and R&A going to use the Handicap/Stroke Index for individual holes like they do now? Or will they have to re-rate courses?

Those are supposed to be done by a study of cards. They put them all into the system, the system analyzes which holes would be most and least beneficial for a higher handicapper to get strokes on, and spits that out. Then they'll adjust to put odd holes on the front and to spread the strokes out a little so a six handicapper doesn't get all six of his strokes in the first 10 holes, for example, and that's the handicap # for the holes and the course.

No re-rating necessary, and technically, you could create handicap #s for holes without rating the course at all, since it's just based on empirical data - 400 or so scorecards.

12 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Isn't the slope rating just the difference between the scratch rating (the number you see on the scorecard), and the bogey rating (which you don't) with that difference multiplied by 5.381 for men and 4.xxx for women?

I think that's still it, yeah.

Basically we'll determine two course ratings when we rate a course: the scratch rating which = the course ratings and the bogey rating, which might be 94.5 or something. So if you have a 72.1 and a 94.5, that's, what… 123 or so? Which makes sense as a bogey golfer is about a 20 handicapper, and if the rating/slope is 72.1/123 then a 95 is a ~20 differential, and a 95 is ~19.

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Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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I found this a bit late, but was wondering if the USGA's GHIN system would dovetail with it. Hard to imagine that it would not. The only reason I ask is that I'm thinking of entering a local tournament. Even though the age group I would compete in doesn't really demand an official HI, they like to have them for purposes of pairing. There are no handicap brackets in the Senior (60 to 70) age group. you finish with what your actual score is.                                                                                                                                              Questions,is there a minimium  number of rounds necessary to establish a GHIN?  

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34 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

                                                                                                                        Questions,is there a minimium  number of rounds necessary to establish a GHIN?  

Five 18-hole rounds. During active season (starts March 15 in Ohio, or played elsewhere that is in active season even while your home club is in inactive season). 

http://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=3

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This won’t accomplish anything.

Unless you like to gamble, or even make a friendly wager with your buddies or play in a league a handicap is unnecessary and will do nothing to grow the game. The course where I play in a league does their own handicap calculations not paying any attention at all to the GHIN system or even taking into consideration scores outside of league play. I'm not even sure they use the same math formula. I recalculated what my handicap index would be using the new method and it went down by 2/10ths of a stroke. Big deal…how’s that going to impact anything?

The other thing with making it more equitable by taking into consideration daily (or hourly?) adjustments for conditions, while it sounds good, it will, when all is said and done, be unworkable. First of all I’m guessing someone will set the daily slope number adjustment which will get posted. Who’s going to do that, the lady at the cash register or the retired old guy working as a part-time ranger? Many public courses no longer have pros in residence. At the county course I play at on weekends, there’s one pro for 4 widely scattered venues. What’s he going to do, drive a hundred miles daily to sniff the weather, read the winds and issue a slope decree? Then what happens if the weather changes, like a storm comes up and then blows through? It’s a nice idea but won’t be feasible in the long run.

If they want to grow the game make it cost less. Period.

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4 minutes ago, xrayvizhen said:

This won’t accomplish anything.

Yes it will.

It unifies the world in a single handicap system and, particularly in the UK, allows a lot more people who can't play in weekly "comps" or things like that. It also allows golfers around the world to converse with the same language or understanding of their handicap/ability.

It also applies the course rating/slope idea to just about every course in the world (excluding only those who don't want it).

4 minutes ago, xrayvizhen said:

I recalculated what my handicap index would be using the new method and it went down by 2/10ths of a stroke. Big deal…how’s that going to impact anything?

That's pretty short-sighted don't you think?

4 minutes ago, xrayvizhen said:

The other thing with making it more equitable by taking into consideration daily (or hourly?) adjustments for conditions, while it sounds good, it will, when all is said and done, be unworkable.

Incorrect.

And it's not taking into effect hourly adjustments. Daily.

Completely workable.

4 minutes ago, xrayvizhen said:

First of all I’m guessing someone will set the daily slope number adjustment which will get posted.

Nope. It's just an algorithm, and it's applied after the scores are returned, not before.

You've done a fine job of illustrating the problem with forming opinions without much knowledge.

4 minutes ago, xrayvizhen said:

It’s a nice idea but won’t be feasible in the long run.

It's just a math algorithm.

It's also been discussed several times in this topic. No, you're not expected to have read every post in detail, but at least skim them and then comment on the posts you feel you've learned about.

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I have read a lot of these and also have some concerns about the new system when and if it occurs, and I think it will occur. I worry some about the definition of "competitive round". Most of the golf I play is friendly rounds and yes there usually something on the line. A couple of the "leagues" I play in the winter time, there is an entry fee and "the pot" is redistributed according to results after the round. A lot of my summer rounds are at the club and are $5 Nassau type round with your buddies. Will those rounds be considered Competitive Rounds? The Club does have monthly tournaments that I am sure will qualify. But enter fees are considerable and I don't play those often. So I'm not losing any sleep over this but just curious about what rounds will qualify for handicap and if there will be a requirement to play a minimum number a year to qualify to have a handicap. I suspect however the specific definitions are not decided or public yet.

Butch

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6 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

I have read a lot of these and also have some concerns about the new system when and if it occurs, and I think it will occur. I worry some about the definition of "competitive round". Most of the golf I play is friendly rounds and yes there usually something on the line. A couple of the "leagues" I play in the winter time, there is an entry fee and "the pot" is redistributed according to results after the round. A lot of my summer rounds are at the club and are $5 Nassau type round with your buddies. Will those rounds be considered Competitive Rounds? The Club does have monthly tournaments that I am sure will qualify. But enter fees are considerable and I don't play those often. So I'm not losing any sleep over this but just curious about what rounds will qualify for handicap and if there will be a requirement to play a minimum number a year to qualify to have a handicap. I suspect however the specific definitions are not decided or public yet.

I think this is the case, there are still a lot of decisions to be made.  The announced changes to date will have relatively small day-to-day impact on most golfers.   In my opinion, the definition of what rounds are posted for handicap is one of the most difficult to be made, because the current handicap systems vary so greatly.  Many golfers worldwide, maybe all golfers, will be required to make a significant change to both habits and attitudes.  

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Small change to what Dave said…

10 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The announced changes to date will have relatively small day-to-day impact on most golfers in the United States.

In the U.S., almost nothing changes from our current system.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instructor Development, 5 Simple Keys®/Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins • Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 • "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 • Penn-State Behrend Head Coach • • • • • • • • • • :aimpoint: :edel: :true_linkswear:

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I am a little late to the party but I have a question. In the summary at the beginning of the thread there was an item that stated this new system will “allow golfers to post both competitive and recreational rounds.”

What is the difference between competitive and recreational rounds?

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16 minutes ago, GJT said:

I am a little late to the party but I have a question. In the summary at the beginning of the thread there was an item that stated this new system will “allow golfers to post both competitive and recreational rounds.”

What is the difference between competitive and recreational rounds?

One is in a formal competition and the latter is just playing a round of golf with your friends.

Right now, in the UK for example, only the former really could count toward your handicap.

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