World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

[klineka]

7 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

But in opinion, it does not account for greens stimping at 12 vs 8 or fairways 20 yards wide vs 30 yards wide or the decision to mow rough to 4-5 inches versus 2 1/2-3 inches or firm and fast greens vs watered.  Just my observation or I should say my opinion.

I don't think those things matter as much as you are giving them credit for. A 5 handicap is a 5 handicap. It's unlikely that someone is going to be playing all of their rounds at a course that always has stimp 12 greens, 20 yd wide fairways and 4 inch rough. And if the course is always set up like that, then that will be reflected in the course/slope rating.

Edit: Yup what @iacas said

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Yes it does.

Those things are factored into both the course rating and slope.

Edited February 19, 2020 by klineka

[bkuehn1952]

4 hours ago, Rippy_72 said:

Does anyone know if one can start over with a new handicap, ignoring scores from 2013/2014?  I know old scores carry over into the new systems,

If you know your GHIN number you might try looking yourself up.  If there you are no longer in the GHIN system, then signing up now should result in a new number.  If you are still in the system, then the USGA/R&A want you to retain the same GHIN number.  I just attended a USGA session on the new handicap system and they were adamant about not having two GHIN numbers and/or multiple handicaps.

And yes, the road to a correct handicap will be long.  With the new "hard cap" a handicap can only rise 5 strokes from the 12 month low.

As others have said, speak with the Handicap Committee.  They have the power to adjust your index until such time as you have 20 current scores.

 

p.s. I looked up one of our club members scores history with GHIN.  They have data back to 2013 on him.  Of course, he has been active since before 2013 and never let his membership lapse.

Edited February 19, 2020 by bkuehn1952

[Rippy_72]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes it does.

Those things are factored into both the course rating and slope.

Not effectively.  

[Rippy_72]

41 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Handicap Committee are made of volunteers, it requires members who are interested.  When private clubs have no committees, chances are they don't have members who care enough to want to do it themselves.  I'm sure there are some cases where the Pro or Management prefers to retain control, but I'd bet they're a minority,

 

I know.  If a club has 250 members and 40 rounds average per member, that is is 10,000 rounds to somehow control.  it is a thankless job for sure and not an easy one.  There are private clubs that not only do not have a committee or may not have had one for 20 years - there are others that do not care.  I have been a member at clubs with a variety of different "approaches" to the handicap committee challenge.  Plenty of sandbaggers who openly pump up their HC before the big member-guests, etc.  

At your club, who reviews a score posted into the computer?  How do you know if a member posts their especially good scores?  

Back in the old days, you needed a signature on a card, a person who attested to it.  Like in a tournament.  This tournament score posting was probably the best part of the British system, a guy's handicap was based upon competition and only competition and thus, should represent one's playing ability.  

I don't mean to stir the pot, I am just never confident in someone's handicap unless I have played with them quite a bit. For instance, I played a small wager match with a 6 HcP on the Old course giving him 3 shots.  I was three down going into the Long Hole, he was 3 under and shot 68.  I gladly paid him but the odds of a 6 HcP shooting 4 under in the wind is pretty well nil.  

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Not effectively.  

Says who? You? What’s your experience with courses rating?

Plus if the conditions are tougher than rated this year the PCC would help.

[mauricio]

There's a lot of simple ways to control, first if people do return scores, second peer review, and any other that any Golf Association or Golf Club can determine to attend their demand. A Handicap Committee doesn't need to control every and each scorecard, but do act over suspect cases and with some evidences. 

[Rippy_72]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Says who? You? What’s your experience with courses rating?

Plus if the conditions are tougher than rated this year the PCC would help.

USGA has assumed a scratch player is one who has a teeball that travels 225 yards in the air, this is where they look at difficulty.  To be frank, I have never played with a scratch who hit it that short.  I am sure there are some.  There isn't much more to know once such an enormous error is seen.  

When was the last time you saw a non-tournament scratch player break 80 first time out on a championship test, like a USGA setup?  I've played with good quality club professionals on many occasions where they failed to break 90 on such venues.  So, says me.

Edited February 19, 2020 by iacas
removed OT parts

[klineka]

12 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Discussion boards are for opinions.   USGA has assumed a scratch player is one who has a teeball that travels 225 yards in the air, this is where they look at difficulty.  To be frank, I have never played with a scratch who hit it that short.  I am sure there are some.  There isn't much more to know once such an enormous error is seen.  

When was the last time you saw a non-tournament scratch player break 80 first time out on a championship test, like a USGA setup?  I've played with good quality club professionals on many occasions where they failed to break 90 on such venues.  So, says me.

None of that answered his question. 

Yes discussion boards are for opinions, and on this discussion board there is the expectation that you back up your opinion with facts.

You stated that course and slope ratings don't effectively take things like course conditions into consideration. Other than your "experience" which appears to be a limited sample size of the rounds you have played with others (which is miniscule compared to the number of total rounds that have been played overall using course/slope ratings), what facts do you have that suggest that to be true?

How much experience do you have with course ratings? Because I'm pretty sure the person that is questioning your opinion has/does rate courses for the USGA. (correct me if I'm wrong Erik)

How is someone asking you to provide facts that support your opinion pettiness and lacking respect/appreciation for your opinion?

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

If a club has 250 members and 40 rounds average per member, that is is 10,000 rounds to somehow control.

…

At your club, who reviews a score posted into the computer?  How do you know if a member posts their especially good scores?

It's not like all 10,000 rounds have to be reviewed. You can spot check a few, and the "cheats" at any given club tend to be pretty well known. Local associations will often post the players scores FOR them in events, and clubs will do this as well. They will also often notice if someone plays frequently without posting.

22 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

I don't mean to stir the pot, I am just never confident in someone's handicap unless I have played with them quite a bit.

IMO, vanity handicapping is more of a "problem" than actual sandbagging.

22 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

For instance, I played a small wager match with a 6 HcP on the Old course giving him 3 shots.  I was three down going into the Long Hole, he was 3 under and shot 68.  I gladly paid him but the odds of a 6 HcP shooting 4 under in the wind is pretty well nil.  

You can find the tables with exceptional tournament score odds. It's not zero, but it's not exactly high, either.

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

USGA has assumed a scratch player is one who has a teeball that travels 225 yards in the air, this is where they look at difficulty.

This is incorrect.

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

When was the last time you saw a non-tournament scratch player break 80 first time out on a championship test, like a USGA setup?

Every year. And, the course rating at a lot of the courses set up for PGA Tour-level major championship tests are approaching an 80.0 course rating anyway.

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

So, says me.

Well, cool, but you've not gotten a bunch of basic facts right.

• The normal conditions of the course are considered, including stimp, slope of greens, rough height, width of fairways, etc. They're factored into green targets, etc.
• Obstacles along the entire length of the hole are considered. A bit more so for the bogey rating, while obstacles within 20 yards of 250 yards (effective length) forward and back are considered a bit more heavily for the scratch golfer.
• A true USGA course setup often doesn't have an actual course rating or slope. They're not the normal playing conditions, and because players in a major aren't posting to their handicaps… it'd be pointless to re-rate with those conditions. This year, the PCC will help the rare players who play those courses a week or two before a major, but… this is hardly what I would call a "big" issue.

Look, I've been a course rater for ~15 years, and captain of the course rating team for ~5. You can have an opinion, but I also get to question the foundation upon which that opinion is based. And, honestly, I find the foundation weak.

[mauricio]

@iacas and @DaveP043 , regarding to Course Rating.

How does this work in the US? Let's say that there's a new course to be rated, who does the rating? Who pays for Raters to go from their hometown to the course, their food and stay if needed? There's an Association responsible for that, USGA does anything? How it works? What's the fluxogram and the costs responsability? It's all responsability for the Club, who they have to call to start, access USGA database? Please explain how it works. Thanks in advance.

[DaveP043]

I'm not really familiar with those details, but I know @iacas is, he has been doing course ratings for a number of years.  I do know that ratings are done following USGA procedures, but that the teams are organized and assigned by the State or Regional Golf Associations.  I'm not sure if Argentina has subdivided into smaller groups like we have, for you it might be the national association that does it all.  

[iacas]

3 hours ago, mauricio said:

How does this work in the US? Let's say that there's a new course to be rated, who does the rating? Who pays for Raters to go from their hometown to the course, their food and stay if needed? There's an Association responsible for that, USGA does anything? How it works? What's the fluxogram and the costs responsability? It's all responsability for the Club, who they have to call to start, access USGA database? Please explain how it works. Thanks in advance.

I volunteer for WPGA (West Penn Golf Association). Regional golf associations are responsible for handling course ratings, as member associations of the USGA.

We make day trips, and we pay for the gas. We typically get to play the course afterward, free, as a form of compensation, but really, it's our way of giving back.

We're well trained, and captains are responsible for overseeing everything, and we're trained and calibrated yearly. I've attended national USGA rating seminars, for example.

I feel that answers most of your questions.

[mauricio]

On 2/21/2020 at 3:54 PM, iacas said:

I volunteer for WPGA (West Penn Golf Association). Regional golf associations are responsible for handling course ratings, as member associations of the USGA.

We make day trips, and we pay for the gas. We typically get to play the course afterward, free, as a form of compensation, but really, it's our way of giving back.

We're well trained, and captains are responsible for overseeing everything, and we're trained and calibrated yearly. I've attended national USGA rating seminars, for example.

I feel that answers most of your questions.

Thanks so much, here the Brazilian Confederation used to be responsible for the first rating, paying volunteers transfer, food and stay if needed. Now it's becoming more like yours.

 

Another question is, I remember that in the past Handicap System Manual we didn't rate short courses, now it seems to be different, what's the minimum size for rating a course nowadays? I'm asking because my uncle started a course in his farm, and the lenght is 4492 yards for 18 holes. Thanks in advance.

[mauricio]

@iacas please, do you have or know where I can find a spreadsheet like Microsoft Excel for calculating CR and SR? I need to calculate for a private golf course, thanks in advance. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, mauricio said:

@iacas please, do you have or know where I can find a spreadsheet like Microsoft Excel for calculating CR and SR? I need to calculate for a private golf course, thanks in advance. 

It's not really mine to give out.

I'd contact your regional/national golf association.

[dennyjones]

I belong to a virtual club (Thegrint).  Today we played on my home course with the winds about 18 gusting to about 25.   How does a virtual club know the PCC if there aren't enough members that play the course.  What I see..correct me if I'm wrong, since very few members of the virtual club won't be posting scores from my home course, there won't be a correction.   Does the USGA take into account all scores posted on the course or is it club specific?  If I was a member of a "real" club, more scores would have been posted and there may have been a PCC?  This may not make a huge difference, just curious.  

I've been given a GHIN number but was told by Thegrint that I don't have access to look up handicaps of other members, they are asking the USGA to make a fix.   I don't play competitively but if I did, this may be a huge disadvantage.  

 

[dennyjones]

Full of questions today.  

Course Handicap:   Handicap * (slope/113) + (rating - par)     correct?

trying to calculate today's round:

13.5 * (117/113) + (67.3- 69)  : my handicap is 13.5.  The course slope is 117, rating is 67.3 and par is 69 according to USGA.   Copper Ridge in Davison, MI.

parenthesis first, multiplication/division left to right followed by addition/subtraction left to right ?

13.5 * 1.035398 + (-1.7) = 12.28   right?

Thegrint has the course handicap as 9

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by dennyjones

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

I belong to a virtual club (Thegrint).  Today we played on my home course with the winds about 18 gusting to about 25.   How does a virtual club know the PCC if there aren't enough members that play the course.  What I see..correct me if I'm wrong, since very few members of the virtual club won't be posting scores from my home course, there won't be a correction.   Does the USGA take into account all scores posted on the course or is it club specific?  If I was a member of a "real" club, more scores would have been posted and there may have been a PCC?  This may not make a huge difference, just curious.  

I've been given a GHIN number but was told by Thegrint that I don't have access to look up handicaps of other members, they are asking the USGA to make a fix.   I don't play competitively but if I did, this may be a huge disadvantage.  

As I understand things, eventually all scores around the world will be available to handicapping authorities through some centralized database.  In theory, all scores posted for play on that golf course on that day are used to determine the PCC, no matter where those players maintain their handicaps.   Assuming that is so, scores from the Grint would be used to determine the PCC, along with scores posted in GHIN, scores posted through the Chicago District Golf Association (directly authorized by the USGA for that region, but chooses not to use GHIN), scores posted by England residents who happen to play your course and post through their home service, etc.  I don't know for sure how the Grint is set up for this, I hope they'll explain it to you if you ask.

From what I've been told, I'd expect the influence of the PCC to be pretty small.  First, its expected to be applied relatively rarely, something like 10% of the time in Virginia.  Chances are that if scores are high enough to trigger a PCC, correcting them down by a stroke or two won't bring them into your best 8 of the last 20.  

4 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

Full of questions today.  

Course Handicap:   Handicap * (slope/113) + (rating - par)     correct?

trying to calculate today's round:

13.5 * (117/113) + (67.3- 69)  : my handicap is 13.5.  The course slope is 117, rating is 67.3 and par is 69 according to USGA.   Copper Ridge in Davison, MI.

parenthesis first, multiplication/division left to right followed by addition/subtraction left to right ?

13.5 * 1.035398 + (-1.7) = 12.28   right?

Thegrint has the course handicap as 9

The GRINT thinks the par is 72, rather than 69, which explains the 3-stroke difference in Course Handicap.  Did par change for the course based on the new guidelines?  Its possible that the Grint just needs to update its data.