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World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

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7 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

But in opinion, it does not account for greens stimping at 12 vs 8 or fairways 20 yards wide vs 30 yards wide or the decision to mow rough to 4-5 inches versus 2 1/2-3 inches or firm and fast greens vs watered.  Just my observation or I should say my opinion.

I don't think those things matter as much as you are giving them credit for. A 5 handicap is a 5 handicap. It's unlikely that someone is going to be playing all of their rounds at a course that always has stimp 12 greens, 20 yd wide fairways and 4 inch rough. And if the course is always set up like that, then that will be reflected in the course/slope rating.

Edit: Yup what @iacas said

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Yes it does.

Those things are factored into both the course rating and slope.

Edited by klineka

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4 hours ago, Rippy_72 said:

Does anyone know if one can start over with a new handicap, ignoring scores from 2013/2014?  I know old scores carry over into the new systems,

If you know your GHIN number you might try looking yourself up.  If there you are no longer in the GHIN system, then signing up now should result in a new number.  If you are still in the system, then the USGA/R&A want you to retain the same GHIN number.  I just attended a USGA session on the new handicap system and they were adamant about not having two GHIN numbers and/or multiple handicaps.

And yes, the road to a correct handicap will be long.  With the new "hard cap" a handicap can only rise 5 strokes from the 12 month low.

As others have said, speak with the Handicap Committee.  They have the power to adjust your index until such time as you have 20 current scores.

 

p.s. I looked up one of our club members scores history with GHIN.  They have data back to 2013 on him.  Of course, he has been active since before 2013 and never let his membership lapse.

Edited by bkuehn1952

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41 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Handicap Committee are made of volunteers, it requires members who are interested.  When private clubs have no committees, chances are they don't have members who care enough to want to do it themselves.  I'm sure there are some cases where the Pro or Management prefers to retain control, but I'd bet they're a minority,

 

I know.  If a club has 250 members and 40 rounds average per member, that is is 10,000 rounds to somehow control.  it is a thankless job for sure and not an easy one.  There are private clubs that not only do not have a committee or may not have had one for 20 years - there are others that do not care.  I have been a member at clubs with a variety of different "approaches" to the handicap committee challenge.  Plenty of sandbaggers who openly pump up their HC before the big member-guests, etc.  

At your club, who reviews a score posted into the computer?  How do you know if a member posts their especially good scores?  

Back in the old days, you needed a signature on a card, a person who attested to it.  Like in a tournament.  This tournament score posting was probably the best part of the British system, a guy's handicap was based upon competition and only competition and thus, should represent one's playing ability.  

I don't mean to stir the pot, I am just never confident in someone's handicap unless I have played with them quite a bit. For instance, I played a small wager match with a 6 HcP on the Old course giving him 3 shots.  I was three down going into the Long Hole, he was 3 under and shot 68.  I gladly paid him but the odds of a 6 HcP shooting 4 under in the wind is pretty well nil.  

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30 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Not effectively.  

Says who? You? What’s your experience with courses rating?

Plus if the conditions are tougher than rated this year the PCC would help.

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There's a lot of simple ways to control, first if people do return scores, second peer review, and any other that any Golf Association or Golf Club can determine to attend their demand. A Handicap Committee doesn't need to control every and each scorecard, but do act over suspect cases and with some evidences. 

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15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Says who? You? What’s your experience with courses rating?

Plus if the conditions are tougher than rated this year the PCC would help.

USGA has assumed a scratch player is one who has a teeball that travels 225 yards in the air, this is where they look at difficulty.  To be frank, I have never played with a scratch who hit it that short.  I am sure there are some.  There isn't much more to know once such an enormous error is seen.  

When was the last time you saw a non-tournament scratch player break 80 first time out on a championship test, like a USGA setup?  I've played with good quality club professionals on many occasions where they failed to break 90 on such venues.  So, says me.

Edited by iacas
removed OT parts

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12 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Discussion boards are for opinions.   USGA has assumed a scratch player is one who has a teeball that travels 225 yards in the air, this is where they look at difficulty.  To be frank, I have never played with a scratch who hit it that short.  I am sure there are some.  There isn't much more to know once such an enormous error is seen.  

When was the last time you saw a non-tournament scratch player break 80 first time out on a championship test, like a USGA setup?  I've played with good quality club professionals on many occasions where they failed to break 90 on such venues.  So, says me.

None of that answered his question. 

Yes discussion boards are for opinions, and on this discussion board there is the expectation that you back up your opinion with facts.

You stated that course and slope ratings don't effectively take things like course conditions into consideration. Other than your "experience" which appears to be a limited sample size of the rounds you have played with others (which is miniscule compared to the number of total rounds that have been played overall using course/slope ratings), what facts do you have that suggest that to be true?

How much experience do you have with course ratings? Because I'm pretty sure the person that is questioning your opinion has/does rate courses for the USGA. (correct me if I'm wrong Erik)

How is someone asking you to provide facts that support your opinion pettiness and lacking respect/appreciation for your opinion?

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22 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

If a club has 250 members and 40 rounds average per member, that is is 10,000 rounds to somehow control.

At your club, who reviews a score posted into the computer?  How do you know if a member posts their especially good scores?

It's not like all 10,000 rounds have to be reviewed. You can spot check a few, and the "cheats" at any given club tend to be pretty well known. Local associations will often post the players scores FOR them in events, and clubs will do this as well. They will also often notice if someone plays frequently without posting.

22 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

I don't mean to stir the pot, I am just never confident in someone's handicap unless I have played with them quite a bit.

IMO, vanity handicapping is more of a "problem" than actual sandbagging.

22 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

For instance, I played a small wager match with a 6 HcP on the Old course giving him 3 shots.  I was three down going into the Long Hole, he was 3 under and shot 68.  I gladly paid him but the odds of a 6 HcP shooting 4 under in the wind is pretty well nil.  

You can find the tables with exceptional tournament score odds. It's not zero, but it's not exactly high, either.

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

USGA has assumed a scratch player is one who has a teeball that travels 225 yards in the air, this is where they look at difficulty.

This is incorrect.

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

When was the last time you saw a non-tournament scratch player break 80 first time out on a championship test, like a USGA setup?

Every year. And, the course rating at a lot of the courses set up for PGA Tour-level major championship tests are approaching an 80.0 course rating anyway.

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

So, says me.

Well, cool, but you've not gotten a bunch of basic facts right.

  • The normal conditions of the course are considered, including stimp, slope of greens, rough height, width of fairways, etc. They're factored into green targets, etc.
  • Obstacles along the entire length of the hole are considered. A bit more so for the bogey rating, while obstacles within 20 yards of 250 yards (effective length) forward and back are considered a bit more heavily for the scratch golfer.
  • A true USGA course setup often doesn't have an actual course rating or slope. They're not the normal playing conditions, and because players in a major aren't posting to their handicaps… it'd be pointless to re-rate with those conditions. This year, the PCC will help the rare players who play those courses a week or two before a major, but… this is hardly what I would call a "big" issue.

Look, I've been a course rater for ~15 years, and captain of the course rating team for ~5. You can have an opinion, but I also get to question the foundation upon which that opinion is based. And, honestly, I find the foundation weak.

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