Jump to content
IGNORED

Higher handicaps should be practicing the short game more [mygolfspy]


Note: This thread is 1963 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Indeed, short game practice is essential.

However, guys that suck at golf often find themselves reaching the green after 6 shots. The damage is already done. Not much consolation between a nice 8, or a sloppy 9.

You can't fix SUCK.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
2 minutes ago, Kenny Lee said:

Indeed, short game practice is essential.

Essential? Sure. More important than practicing your full swing? No…

2 minutes ago, Kenny Lee said:

You can't fix SUCK.

Uhhh… So you broke 80 the first time you played golf? Or you "fixed" how much you sucked at first?

C'mon.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Anytime I see Dave Pelz involvement one has to assume that he will skew his results toward something related to the short game. He makes no money if you spend your time/money on long game because he doesn't teach that. Plus, Pelz research has been proven wrong before with the 17" beyond the hole garbage. Not saying everything he says is false, but he has a tendency to skew data to get it to say what he wants.

I have found that for high handicappers I can see a very small quick improvement through work on the short game. But the longer term and larger improvement always comes from working on the long game. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

Holy crap, I'm not a math guy but that chart sucks.

4 hours ago, nevets88 said:

How many times did PAULRUNYAN ,an artist in the short game ,beat long hitters like SAM SNEAD ?

Quoting from the article, not something @nevets88 said. 

Runyan had a great career but I'll take Snead's record ;-) Also I bet Runyan hit the ball pretty well on the weeks he he did win.

3 hours ago, iacas said:

In other words, practice your short game to shave 3 or 4 strokes quickly, then practice your long game to shave 7 or 8 strokes. The latter takes more effort, but results in bigger gains.

I think this sums it up perfectly.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

Maybe Michael Breed actually did know what he was talking about when he made the claim that pros spend relatively more time on short game.

That hasn't been my experience covering a dozen or so tournaments for the site and getting to hang around several pros and their coaches. The pros spend A LOT of time on their full swing mechanics. 

1 hour ago, pganapathy said:

I remember reading an article a couple of years back about some older pro who essentially never practiced his long game.  Whenever he came for a tournament a few days prior he would work on his short game only and maybe hit one bucket of balls for all long clubs together.  His theory was the swing was grooved and muscle memory was good enough that he didn't need to spend any time on the long game.  All practice time was short game only where it is easy to get out of touch and he reckons that lack of practice in a short game cost him more shots than anything else.

Well, whoever wrote that is an idiot. Just because one "old pro" did this means it's the right thing for everyone? Anyone with any common sense knows this isn't true. Go to any tour event and watch what the guys do. Read any golfer's biography and they'll talk about how much time they spend on the range pounding balls. Hogan hit balls till his hands bled, Jack first saw Arnie hitting balls on the range in the rain, Tiger talks about spending several hours a day on the range, etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

In my experience, a good short game only saves you once in a while when you do not have a decent long game. If you're not hitting GIRs and/or you are not nearly on the green in regulation, you will forever remain shooting in the 80's. I mean, that may meet your expectations -- it does not meet my goals.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

From my first time golfing, I could 2 putt from just about anywhere on an easy green (the kinds I play).  Even if I couldn't *really* . .I was close enough to believe I could.  If you can do that, the best thing is to work on long game, imo.  I could practice putting a long time and still not make many long putts . .so I'm still going to be 2 putting unless I hit it closer.  If you struggle to 2 putt once you're on the green, could be a different prescription.  If you *feel* like you should work on your short game more, you probably should.   

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Essential? Sure. More important than practicing your full swing? No…

Uhhh… So you broke 80 the first time you played golf? Or you "fixed" how much you sucked at first?

C'mon.

I think we agree here, boss.

The thread is titled "Higher handicaps should be practicing the short game more". I agree with this, but if someone is THAT bad, they should work on developing a competent swing first. Because if it takes them 6 shots to get to the green, it won't matter how good their short game is.

I think you're saying the same thing. Although I could be wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think the chart demonstrates any wisdom at all. 

Do you disagree that Broadie's numbers demonstrate a ~ 10% shift in strokes gained contribution from long to short game from high / max HCP down to approximately 6 HCP?

I think the evidence in the OP chart that shows higher HCPs are spending more time on the long game shows they are smarter than a lot of pundits give them credit for - hence 'the wisdom of crowds' reference. I think the article author makes the same mistake as Breed that if single digits are spending a bit more time on the short game than high handicappers, this is the reason they score better and have always been practicing like this rather than this is something they do now that is different from when they were first learning the game.

Edited by natureboy
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Do you disagree that Broadie's numbers demonstrate a ~ 10% shift in strokes gained contribution from long to short game from high / max HCP down to approximately 6 HCP?

That's not the chart to which I was referring. I was talking about the one used in the article at MGS.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

5 hours ago, mvmac said:

That hasn't been my experience covering a dozen or so tournaments for the site and getting to hang around several pros and their coaches. The pros spend A LOT of time on their full swing mechanics. 

I getcha, and I'm not disputing your experience that they spend the bulk of their time on long game. Take a look at the chart I posted toward the bottom of the first page.

I think you and Erik can be right and Breed / the article author in the OP can be partly right too. The latter's info about the practice time data on the 'average' / 'typical' HCP player for low and high HCP players may have been a correct correlation in time spent practicing the different segments of the game. I think that the article author and Breed incorrectly conclude that this correlations is a causation for the difference in scoring ability ergo everyone should do more short game.

The actual ratios of practice time allocation may shift a little by HCP level and per the Broadie percent contribution to score improvement this may be a rational 'wisdom of crowds' adjustment - as they improve and their game changes...not that the slightly different ratio was the reason they achieved lower scores.

Per my approximate chart of Broadie's % contribution to score both single digits and pros gain a little bit less from long game improvements relative to high HCP's. But with that modest relative difference, the long game still benefits all groups more than short game. So for where the article author was at in his game a little more short game practice may have made sense and the actual behavior of high HCPs spending a bit more time than lower HCPs on long game are being smart (though possibly overdoing the difference a bit). And still the long game remains more important overall across HCPs.

And the chart I posted is perfectly compatible with the site's suggested 'baseline' ratio of practice time, because Broadie uses a different cutoff point for long / short game shots.

Edited by natureboy
Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

I did and googled it and still did not see the graph.

The chart is mine. Some data points that I found helpful to estimate the curves are also sprinkled around ESC.

Edited by natureboy
Link to post
Share on other sites

If I look at my Game Golf statistics, my most important shot is hitting the green from 100 to 150 yds, and getting the ball within 15 yds of target. My weakest statistic is GIR. That's my GW  through 7 iron approach shots. I'm hitting one of those on 16 holes per round. That accuracy sets up whether I'm chipping for an up and down, putting for birdie, or lagging for a par, depending upon how well I hit my tee shot. 

If I hit my tee shot reasonably well, keeping on the fairway or at least playable I should be doing that. I'm doing this 44% of the time with my driver. I don't mind the first cut or short second cut during the summer. 

What's happening is that I'm missing those shots too far wide right or hooking them left. They're not accurate enough, so that mid game is my focus this winter along with about 15% driver just because I have to practice that. I also have to hit my 5 iron of the deck so throw that in there at least one day a week. 

Then there's the short game. Right now that amounts to hitting 30 yd, 40 yd and, 60 yd lob shots. Chipping will come in the spring.

Putting will also come in the spring. One day a week on short game and putting.

I think if I can improve my short-mid game in the 100 - 150 yd range, I'll make big strides next season.

@mvmac To underscore the amount of practice, LPGA pro Na Yeon Choi was asked what it takes to become a pro, and she replied - quality instruction and hit 1000 balls a day.

Edited by DrvFrShow
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

If I look at my Game Golf statistics, my most important shot is hitting the green from 100 to 150 yds, and getting the ball within 15 yds of target. My weakest statistic is GIR. That's my GW  through 7 iron approach shots. I'm hitting one of those on 16 holes per round. That accuracy sets up whether I'm chipping for an up and down, putting for birdie, or lagging for a par, depending upon how well I hit my tee shot. 

If I hit my tee shot reasonably well, keeping on the fairway or at least playable I should be doing that. I'm doing this 44% of the time with my driver. I don't mind the first cut or short second cut during the summer. 

What's happening is that I'm missing those shots too far wide right or hooking them left. They're not accurate enough, so that mid game is my focus this winter along with about 15% driver just because I have to practice that. I also have to hit my 5 iron of the deck so throw that in there at least one day a week. 

Then there's the short game. Right now that amounts to hitting 30 yd, 40 yd and, 60 yd lob shots. Chipping will come in the spring.

Putting will also come in the spring. One day a week on short game and putting.

I think if I can improve my short-mid game in the 100 - 150 yd range, I'll make big strides next season.

@mvmac To underscore the amount of practice, LPGA pro Na Yeon Choi was asked what it takes to become a pro, and she replied - quality instruction and hit 1000 balls a day.

Interesting post...IMO from what you describe,there is a glitch in your swing which causes inconsistencies with all clubs....not surprising ,that's recreational golf. I believe having a repeating action is what we are looking for no matter whether you look like Ernie or Furyk.For me, the acid test to see if my glitches are under control, is hitting woods or hybrids(off the deck of course) and then wedges.If I can hit those clubs well,all other clubs will work as well and I am ready to go.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When you look at a bogey golfers score card filled with 7's and snowmen...how often are those scores due to 6 or 7 putts? The chance of a bogey golfer 2-putting is a lot higher than the chance of hitting a GIR. Penalty strokes, awful lies, hazards, obstruction, all result from a poor long game shot. You could be as good a putter as Spieth but it still won't impact your game much when you arrive to the dance floor laying 6. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

12 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

Where is that chart from?-Where is the source data?

I am aware of http://widgets.penguin.com/features/everyshotcounts/table-6-7.png but not the detailed one you have.

It's not perfect - was a rough initial pass just to see if there was something there. I revisited it given your question.

The basic decreasing relationship of relative long game to short game value from high HCP to ~ 5 HCP remains - mostly due to increasing value of putting, which is peaking in the low single digits. On the far left (plus HCP) side, driving actually dips, approach is going back up, putting dips down again, short is going up, overall long ticks down slightly while short plus putting ticks up. But the basic long / short levels 2/3 to 1/3 value remain about the same throughout.

Edited by natureboy
Link to post
Share on other sites

Note: This thread is 1963 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • Support TST Affiliates

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    Whoop
    SuperSpeed
    FlightScope Mevo
    Use the code "iacas" for 10% off Mevo and the code "iacasfeb21" for 10% off SuperSpeed.
  • Posts

    • Of course I know I can take more than one. And I usually do. Every now and then this seems to be a mistake I will make.  Like I said I don't really think I make too many course management decision errors. 
    • Yep, I get that. There is so much in life that needs to be prioritized over golf. Golf is still a game. Life, and the people in need to be given more priority. Sometimes I forget that. But hopefully, there will be a time in the future when you can do your 4 day golf school. Best wishes. 
    • Both. Thanks, that's interesting. I do address the ball with the driver club head on the ground. I'll check what happens when I hover it slightly. Now I'm a "low-pegger", so at impact the driver header is pretty close to the ground. I still get a few degrees upwards AoA. I try to address the ball towards the toe with driver. Just to avoid "heeliness". Could that actually have the opposite effect? My brain thinks I need to move the club "longer out"? I can also add that I'm an inside-outer, probably coming from the inside 5 degrees.
    • Really appreciate your input, I’m not going to add more than 1.5 inches as per info I’ve read and seen on some videos such as Mcgolf. It’s for my brother and the reason I’m leaning towards keeping the ping shafts is the flex suits him, I just don’t know if the butt extension is going to make the shaft stronger or not. Was hoping someone had done it before, guess I do it and see what happens. Cheers 
    • I’ve got tennis elbow so I’ve only been a few times over the last few years as hitting balls one after the other does me no favours.   I’ve got tennis elbow so I’ve only been a few times over the last few years as hitting balls one after the other does me no favours.   I usually play Wednesdays and Fridays also the odd Monday  . If I don’t play Monday I will often go and have some practice, either that or a Tuesday. I often take the Driver , 3 wood 4,5 & 6 irons out of the bag and go with the rest. Learn to hit shots with the clubs I have ,stop around the green have a few chips ,pitches putts etc.  Also I read Dave Pelz’s short game book a while back. I’ve adapted my bike and can fit a wedge on it. At night I go down to the corner of a mown area by sports fields. I take turns of which wedge, and do pitch & 2 different ‘finesse’ swings. Over summer I’ve gotten a pretty fair idea of how far I hit the various swings & it’s definitely paid dividends . I regularly get up & down from under 100 yards, especially under 40/50.  Before I just sort of guessed which club, and the other benefit is swinging slower I find I’m much more accurate with my direction. 
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Miguel Martinho
      Miguel Martinho
      (25 years old)
    2. mtclinton21
      mtclinton21
      (36 years old)
    3. SwingCity18
      SwingCity18
      (33 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...