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how long to get to scratch?


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Crazy_horst and Shred fit:

Thanks. You are both right. Based on his average for the year, 67.79, he's a +10. Obviously, according to Crazy-Horst's good work, he played to only a +8.3 toward the end of the season. So he must have played to a +11 earlier in the year or he wouldn't have averaged 67.79. Crazy_Horst, could you tell us his average score for those last 20 rounds. please? My guess is that it is higher than 67.79. Thus after taking course rating into account) his handicap slipped a little higher at the end of the year. None of us plays to exactly the same handicap all year. Mine goes from about +4 to 0.0

As much as I love and respect Dave Pelz's opinion, I think he is going by their average score, not their best 10 of their last 20... Also. You have to consider that the course ratings are from the back tees in normal conditions. if tour pros played courses like that when they are not "tricked up" believe me they would take them APART. It would be embarassing for the course designers and the members.

Plus (and you're going to consider this very esoteric) I found a flaw in the USGA handicap formula (its spelled out in my book) that pushes + handicaps toward 0.0, not away from it as it should on courses with high slope ratings. I got in a fight with the USGA over it.

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Pelz says in the same issue of Golf Magazine that Tour players are in the +5 to +8 range. Tiger is the +8. I've heard it and read it several times that Tiger is estimated at a +8.

Nobody seems to have quoted our own article on this very topic:

http://thesandtrap.com/the_numbers_g...es_of_the_pros It's from February, but it's still telling/interesting.

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Thanks, iacas.
We are rehashing a lot of what was in your link. Without going back on my promise of this morning in our earlier correspondence, let me say that in a recent publication, there is a mathematically-detailed analysis of the problems with the handicap formula that the USGA does not seem to understand. It was written three years ago by yours truly and made it to press one month ago. The golf world is buzzing.

Author of "Striking It Rich: Golf in the Kingdom with Generals, Patients and Pros"
www.reidsheftall.com

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Crazy_horst and Shred fit:

Quite the opposite - his scoring average over those 20 rounds was a silly 66.65, lower than his average for the year, and the slope and course ratings on those courses were just nuts; one was over 150 for slope, and they was a 77 course rating in there!

Translation: if anything, his handicap went down during that 5-tournament stretch, not up. Thanks also to Iacas for referencing that article - it mirrors my figurin' exactly. I knew Tig would get more than a stroke or two on your "average" PGA Tour pro, and I figured +4 would be about the bottom level of PGA Tour pros. I think +4 is plenty to make a decent living at golf. If you think about ried's handicap of +2.2 and his difficulty (his own admission, not a criticism on my part) in making it on a lesser tour at that number, you have to consider the difference between +2 and +4 is 8 shots over the course of a 4-day event. That's like 3 touchdowns in football. (consider it in terms of Q-school - over 6 days, that's 12 shots, which would indicate if a +4 can squeak by, a +2 ain't got no chance unless the +4 won going away...) Interesting discussion.

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Thanks, Crazy_Horst. I thought that there was a bigger difference between a once -in-a-generation player like Tiger woods and a scrub like me but your numbers prove it. Maybe my experience and mathematical intuition say otherwise because of the problem with the handicap formula that pushes plus handicappers toward 0.0 instead of the other way on high slope-rated courses.
On a similar note, the .96 multiplier, the so called (by the USGA) "bonus for excellence" is handled correctly on both sides of scratch. It is a bonus for excellence since it aids lower handicappers in net events by moving their handicaps closer to 0.0 (than higher handicappers'); making it easier for them to compete in net score events. (Thus counteracting the advantage high handicappers have in net events since it is easier for high handicappers to win net events)

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Thanks, Crazy_Horst. I thought that there was a bigger difference between a once -in-a-generation player like Tiger woods and a scrub like me but your numbers prove it.

Hey, don't take me to be calling you names - you've got me by 17 strokes

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It's all about hitting the shots 120 yards and in including putting.

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  • 2 weeks later...

just wanted to update my progres on my quest for scratch..

so last friday, played a new course. and i have noticed that my best shots are all in the beginning of my round when im not trying so hard. for ex, so on the first tee, i decided to play from the "ladies" tees, to make it a 494 par 5. i got up and hit what felt like a perfect shot. i rarely hit yardage markers on par 5s as i only average around 230-245 on solid drives. but i get up to this one and it is a yard behind the 200 marker! i was ecstatic. yeah it was a long flat fairway, but hey, ill take the roll. i dont know how far it carried b/c i have trouble following the ball when it lands, but when i got to it, mud had covered one side. it was still a little soggy from rain we got the night before. there were a lot of short par 4s (260-270) that i usually pull 3W out on, but decided i wanted to try to drive the greens. came really close on one, 5 yds shy of the front. it was the best round ive shot, ended up with an 81. had a few 3 putts, but had the same amount of 1-putts as 3s so i was ok with that.

anyway, if i can knock a few more shots off of my score, looks like im going to be entering some tournaments early next year. its hard to improve, as i can usually only play 1-2 times a week(work full time), but that may all be changing soon!

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  • 5 weeks later...
man, nobody has posted here in so long....

as for me, im about to make the move. im like this close to pulling the trigger, quittin my job and giving it a real try. ive noticed that my scores do not change with the course rating, which they should. for instance, when i shot the 81, it was on a course rated 75.7(from the whites) and was over 6100 yds. i shoot the same whether its an easy course from the reds or a tough course from the whites. its totally a mental block. if i could get over this(along with the rest of the golfing community) i would be dangerous on the course. which is why i think i need to dedicate as much time to it as possible.

i know my potential, when i was playing 2x a week, my best drive in that time was 294 yds. my GIRs were great, but my putting was letting my down. so anyone, let me know what you think about my plan. i quit my steady job and take 3-5 months, working at a course, for privileges and practicing 40hrs a week and entering mini tour events. if i can get to low 70s consistently, then i stick with it and see where i end up after summer. otherwise, if in that time frame i still dont get any better, then i go back to being a once in a while golfer and go back to my desk job.

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man, nobody has posted here in so long....

I don't know how replaceable your job is, but if you are indeed an 11... I would wait.

If you can't get down to mid singles by practicing a few times a week, then in my opinion you are not ready. It would be much better to give it a whirl, when you are actually good enough. Mini tours still require consistent scratch or better golf, and not from 6100 yard either. I would actually say it's easier (and I've heard this from many players) to go from an 20 to a 2, than it is to go from 2 to +2. best of luck whatever you decide.
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I have been playing for 23 years and I am playing me best golf recently. I shot 3 under a couple of month ago and recently in the last month I shot 2 and 3 over but I also will shoot 9 over and 7 over along the way.

Putting and short game is the key to consistant play, I have settled for a fun round of golf with my buddies and with 2 kids have settled with trying to play consistant golf for myself.

If I were to set a goal for myself to improve my golf I need to dedicate much more time into the practice all aspect of my short game.

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thanks for the response Big M.. i definitely agree that it is crazy and not a great move, but here's the real deal. i made a mistake on the last post, i accidentally put the course rating as 75.7, it was actually 74.7. also, that one score dropped my handicap a full point, as it gave me an 8.XX differential which levelled my handicap into the 10s. i just havent updated it on here. my last two rounds i have scored even par on the back 9's. i have trouble on the front b/c im fighting daylight here! most of the time, im sneakin off from work and dont get to the course til 2. for some reason, everyone only plays 9 holes out here so i always get caught in a bottle neck and bounce from hole to hole, scootin past people on the par 3s and such.. hahah. its no excuse, i know, but i know that i could shoot in the 70s all day long. the 81 was the first time that i didnt have a blow up hole, i just was losing so much distance in the cold. im not use to 40* weather so i guess everything's a learning experience. im going to get out this weekend and test it. at any rate, stay tuned cuz its about to get exciting, if i crash and burn, at least you've got a front row seat and ill enjoy the ride.

oh, and putting, the bane of my existence. man oh man, you dont get to break 80 when you miss 4 birdie putts. but im not worried, im like right there on the brink.

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man, nobody has posted here in so long....

Aye... we've all thought of quitting our jobs, dedicating ourselves to golf full time, and joining the tour.

Me, I'm considering some 2-day-a-week jobs for when I finish my degree in order to play lots of golf. But here's the problem: you're going to be putting a lot of pressure on yourself to do better. This happens to retirees, too, who think they can become better now that they can devote themselves to it. Now, if you could take a leave from your job and think you can do this, and have disposable income, go for it. Or if you have a second stream of income (S.O., parents, trust fund, independently wealthy, patent on shoelaces, etc), maybe you can go for this. But remember you're getting better at a game and not training for a new career (yet). Enjoy the process, or you'll regress. By the way, if you quit your job, get to plus handicap, and successfully join a professional tour, you'll be my new hero. Just FYI.

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as for me, im about to make the move. im like this close to pulling the trigger, quittin my job and giving it a real try.

I think it's fine if you want to quit your job to dedicate some time to improve your game as long as 1) you aren't burning any bridges that prevent your return to your current career, and 2) you set realistic goals, like trying to cut your handicap to 6 or so in 3-5 months.

I improved much more quickly than most. I was down to a 12 just 6 months after I started (playing once a week) and 1 year later got down to 4 (playing 2-3 times week), which is where I still am 1 year after that. It's true, I'm old, I didn't have the luxury of quitting my job, I didn't take lessons, and I only practice once a week, but I do play frequently. Still, all the young players I've seen who have decided to quit their jobs, give it a try, play the mini-tours, etc. were already scratch golfers, were already shooting in the 70's (and 60's) all the time (and hardly even remember ever shooting in the 80's), and found out they just weren't good enough. In addition to reading Reid Sheftall's book (Striking it Rich), I recommend you also read Tom Coyne's book (Paper Tiger). Coyne takes a year off work, spends $100k (factoring in bartering) on a nutrition expert, fitness coach, psycholigist, swing coach, hits a ton of balls on the range every day, and does succeed in dropping his index significantly, but finds he's nowhere near good enough to play with the pros. As someone shared earlier, it's a hell of lot easier to get from 20 to 2 than 2 to +2... and +2 is barely good enough. Coyne suggests changing the The PGA tagline - 'These Guys are Good' to read 'These Guys are Good. How Good? You Have No F'ing Idea.' I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm trying to help you set your expectations realistically, or to at least set smaller more achievable goals for a 3-5 month timeframe. Shooting even for 9 holes is a long way from shooting par for 18, and shooting par for 18 is a long way from getting to scratch, and getting to scratch is a long way from being good enough to compete with the pros.

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Hey, If you're up for it more power to you. Let me tell you a little something a friend and fellow golf professional told me a few years ago.

"If you are going to try the playing life, you have to be a superior ball striker. More than that, you have to be the absolute best putter that anyone has ever seen."

Your friends have to think of you when they think of putting.

Then, when you arrive on tour, you are average. They are that good.

Tiger plays to an estimated handicap of +10 or so. That means that he is 10 better than scratch.

So, good luck to you if this is your calling. Spend the majority of the time on your short game and putting.

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i was just woundering if anyone has any goals, like getting to scratch handicap before a certain age. i here about people who have played all there lives and never improve, yet other people getting to scratch in about 3 years so surely if you put the time and effort in, this can be achieved. i am 26 and have been playing golf for 6 months, and although off 26, i can now shoot low 80s thanks to a swing change. i practice way more than most and my goal for next season is to get down to at least 12, and hopefully get to scratch in about 5 years.

You have a chance to get there. Most people don't have any concrete goals.

If you are really serious and have the time, do something every day even if it's making 6 3-footers before you go to work. Hogan practiced every day. He believed that every day he didn't practice there was someone who did. Obviously true. Ben also believed wasn't going to beat the guy who practiced every day unless he did the same. His game turned out OK.

Best, Mike Elzey

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I already posted in this thread how fast I became scratch (a little less then 3 years after starting play). Anyhow after the military and a +2 HCP I decided to try the club pro route. Let me tell you I was a dime a dozen. I would say a +2 HCP is NOT emough to play the little tours around here (Florida). I would say the minumum is a +4. When I went to take the Players Abiltiy test for the PGA program I had not played golf for 4 months (stuck in the Pro Shop) I went out and had no driver and shot 74 and 73 never seeing the course before (6500ish yards). This was 10 years ago. I got burned out on the Assist Pro job in 2 1/2 years. $18000 a year salary to work 60-70 hours a week is not worth it. Also I felt like a grounded kid. I would look out the pro shop window and see all the other people playing golf while I was grounded inside to work. Anyways I got so burned out I quit golf for 5 years. I have just re dedicated myself and am having more trouble getting my game back then I thought. I got the handicap down to a 1 but the last 3 rounds were mid 80's. I NEVER used to shoot in the 80's. So before anyone go's out and quits their day jobs, it is not all fun and games. IT becomes work. Most pros don't touch clubs more then they have too, and most PGA pros at the Local course play once or twice a week max. I will repeat the old saying from I believe it was LEE Triveno, "if you can't go to 4 different courses on any day and shoot 65 you would not have a chance on the Pro tour"

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thanks for the response Big M.. i definitely agree that it is crazy and not a great move, but here's the real deal. i made a mistake on the last post, i accidentally put the course rating as 75.7, it was actually 74.7. also, that one score dropped my handicap a full point, as it gave me an 8.XX differential which levelled my handicap into the 10s. i just havent updated it on here. my last two rounds i have scored even par on the back 9's. i have trouble on the front b/c im fighting daylight here! most of the time, im sneakin off from work and dont get to the course til 2. for some reason, everyone only plays 9 holes out here so i always get caught in a bottle neck and bounce from hole to hole, scootin past people on the par 3s and such.. hahah. its no excuse, i know, but i

I say go for it! You have already done what 99% of people fail to do...shoot for the stars.

Lets face it, extraordinary actions require extraordinary dreams...if you can dream it, you can do it. There is an old saying if you're gonna eat an elephant, you should break it down into a bunch of small meals and it won't seem such a big job. Break down your goal of playing pro golf down into smaller intermediate goals...for e.g I bring my handicap down to a 5 by 7/7/2008...your goal needs to be doable, specific, and have a time limit. Breaking your goal into smaller chunk size goals breaks the elephant down into a manageable job....good luck!
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