Fast Hands and the Speedboat Feel

[iacas]

First, a longer-than-it-needs-to-be video:

Cool. Any questions?

Just kidding.

But there are a few things I want to re-iterate:

• In a good swing, the hands actually begin slowing down around A6. The precise moment varies, but it's generally around when the shaft is horizontal. The hands will also actually begin going up shortly after that.
• This is a feel, but one grounded in science, too: if your hands slow down, the clubhead will try to kick out. If they keep accelerating, the clubhead will try to stay "behind" the hands.
• This is very likely not your priority. You probably have other things you need to work on first. This is simply something to keep in the back of your mind.

Any questions?

---

I almost never share actual, complete images from lessons, with the text beneath, because that's very particular to the individual student. But this one sprang to mind. After we cleaned some setup pieces, this was all I had the golfer (a junior golfer) do:

Before on the left, after on the right. Almost always.

[Mr. Desmond]

Good examples, simple, will help, thanks.

[Missouri Swede]

"Trust the force, Luke!"  (From some old movie or something, I think.)

[Missouri Swede]

Would the rope drill that @cipher mentioned in a thread (http://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/66324-what-do-you-guys-think-of-this-starting-the-downswing/) a long time ago in a galaxy far away give a similar result and/or feel? 

[mvmac]

Good post.

Yeah, you don't see any good players with their hands "lagging" behind their pivot. Arm speed/sequencing is very important.

[chspeed]

Great post. Keeping the body and arms in sync has become a priority piece for me, as my arms lagged behind my pivot. I have a question.

I've tried to speed my arms up by simply swinging them faster all the way through and letting my wrists stay loose. This has definitely helped a bit, but my pivot was still out in front, it seemed to just speed up too. This I confirmed on video.

Now I feel like I actually start with my arms first, not my pivot (I essentially feel like I wait until my arms start down before my pivot starts) and then it looks right on video. Is this a common feel for people?  - I know, I know, feel is different for everyone :)

Thanks!

[iacas]

22 hours ago, chspeed said:

Great post. Keeping the body and arms in sync has become a priority piece for me, as my arms lagged behind my pivot. I have a question.

Yes, that's another way of saying it, yeah.

22 hours ago, chspeed said:

I've tried to speed my arms up by simply swinging them faster all the way through and letting my wrists stay loose. This has definitely helped a bit, but my pivot was still out in front, it seemed to just speed up too. This I confirmed on video.

Okay.

22 hours ago, chspeed said:

Now I feel like I actually start with my arms first, not my pivot (I essentially feel like I wait until my arms start down before my pivot starts) and then it looks right on video. Is this a common feel for people?  - I know, I know, feel is different for everyone :)

Honestly, this is one of those things that tends to be for better players, and even then only some of them really have to do it, so I've had to teach this to maybe ten, twelve people… a small percentage of students have this as a priority. I often feel like pump drills work well for them, but of course you don't want to create a situation where the pivot stalls, either. I often resort to creating as much imagery as I can - sticking a knife in a pig (the knife is in the butt end of the club), etc. Violent (i.e. fast) actions that also help promote the hands moving in the proper dimension - which is not "around and up and to the left" like they would be if the pivot is still… ahead slightly.

Everyone's feels are different, though. Feeling like you start with the hands down might work for some. If you don't mind, I may borrow that and give it a try the next time I have a student who has to work on this.

[chspeed]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Honestly, this is one of those things that tends to be for better players, and even then only some of them really have to do it, so I've had to teach this to maybe ten, twelve people… a small percentage of students have this as a priority. I often feel like pump drills work well for them, but of course you don't want to create a situation where the pivot stalls, either. I often resort to creating as much imagery as I can - sticking a knife in a pig (the knife is in the butt end of the club), etc. Violent (i.e. fast) actions that also help promote the hands moving in the proper dimension - which is not "around and up and to the left" like they would be if the pivot is still… ahead slightly.

Everyone's feels are different, though. Feeling like you start with the hands down might work for some. If you don't mind, I may borrow that and give it a try the next time I have a student who has to work on this.

Thank you for the reply. Of course, borrow away! Since I'm a mid-high handicapper, my issue may indeed be different, however my Evolvr instructor had pointed out that my pivot was out in front of my arms, and suggested swinging arms down faster, which is how I got to where I am. And yes, there is the danger of the pivot stalling, thus the feeling I have of starting them at about the same time, swing my arms down fast (I actually feel like I'm swinging them out, not up and to the left), and then immediately start the pivot. Thanks again.

 

[colin007]

heres something ive heard many people say "I make my backswing and then when i start the downswing my arms just come along for the ride" and that seems so far from the truth, that the hands and arms are POWERFULLY driving down, and NOT passively "along for the ride".

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, colin007 said:

heres something ive heard many people say "I make my backswing and then when i start the downswing my arms just come along for the ride" and that seems so far from the truth, that the hands and arms are POWERFULLY driving down, and NOT passively "along for the ride".

Feel ain't real, my friend.  

[RandallT]

This might sound like a flippant question, but hear me out: Can I practice "fast hands" in slow motion?

I used to take lessons at Golf Tec (Tek?) a long time ago, and they were big on hitting various positions just right. They hooked you up to all kinds of sensors and wanted everything in "proper sequence," including where the body angles and club should be at various checkpoints. If I could do that sequence in slow motion, I could then speed up bit by bit, verifying the sequence as I added speed. 

I just find it interesting that you corrected the junior golfer essentially at full speed by getting him to just blast his hands quickly to the noodle- as opposed to getting the sequence right in slow motion and building from there. I assume that he had tried to rehearse hand positions in slow motion at A6 (appears closer to his legs in the AFTER pic) and A7 (hands more forward in AFTER pic), but that may not have worked for him? 

[nevets88]

8 minutes ago, RandallT said:

This might sound like a flippant question, but hear me out: Can I practice "fast hands" in slow motion?

I used to take lessons at Golf Tec (Tek?) a long time ago, and they were big on hitting various positions just right. They hooked you up to all kinds of sensors and wanted everything in "proper sequence," including where the body angles and club should be at various checkpoints. If I could do that sequence in slow motion, I could then speed up bit by bit, verifying the sequence as I added speed. 

I just find it interesting that you corrected the junior golfer essentially at full speed by getting him to just blast his hands quickly to the noodle- as opposed to getting the sequence right in slow motion and building from there. I assume that he had tried to rehearse hand positions in slow motion at A6 (appears closer to his legs in the AFTER pic) and A7 (hands more forward in AFTER pic), but that may not have worked for him? 

NOT FLIPPANT! I've been thinking about this recently. Was re-reading James Sieckmann's Short Game Solution and he writes the difference between short game and long game swings is hands start first short game, lower body first long game. So for slower tempo full swing maybe the optimal lies somewhere in-between?

[Jeremie Boop]

Well, hey, something that speaks to my priority piece. No idea how I missed this video. This does explain the idea of "faster hands" or "speed up your hands" in a way that I can understand. 

 

And this is funny "flippant" in a thread about fixing the flip

 

19 minutes ago, RandallT said:

This might sound like a flippant question,

Edited May 21, 2016 by Jeremie Boop

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, RandallT said:

This might sound like a flippant question, but hear me out: Can I practice "fast hands" in slow motion?

Generally, no, but possibly, yes.

Does that answer your question?

[RandallT]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

Generally, no, but possibly, yes.

Does that answer your question?

Perhaps yes, maybe no. 

Spoiler

Yes, actually. Not my priority piece until Stephan tells me it is, but I was mainly just curious.

 

53 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

And this is funny "flippant" in a thread about fixing the flip

Wish I could say I thought of that pun!

[natureboy]

Good post. I like the speedboat analogy.

While I agree that feel isn't always real, the right 'feel' or mental image can help achieve the desired effect. They might be particular to individual golfers, but quite often they have overlap to others.

[Rainmaker]

Great post!   I really like the motor boat idea.  I recently came to a similar conclusion in my practice but I've been sort of "shoving" my hands further and further forward into impact.  I think this idea of pulling a skier is a better one than "shoving". 

I actually though it would make a cool idea for a training aid - something like a foam pad on a stand that would give way when you smashed it.  Now, of course, I think I'm just going to take a pool noodle and stick it in a chair back or stepladder or something so it's at the right height.   

[colin007]

@iacas, i am having trouble getting this to happen, especially on the short irons and full swing p wedge, and I don't even know how to practice this in slo-mo. Any suggestions? I guess the heavier iron heads on the 8, 9, and wedge just feel like they want to come out faster than the hands can get down.