AJGA Rules Suck

[jamo]

When there's a rule like this that seemingly pointlessly omits someone from participation, it's usually best to wonder why that rule is there in the first place. Is there any reason that someone in college would be disallowed from playing in an AJGA event? Well, sure, I guess they mean to keep the tournaments for college golf preparation. Then, what about kids like @Pretzel who are in college but not on a golf team? Is there any logical reason, stated by the AJGA or otherwise, that sort of kid should be kept out of an AJGA event? Not that I see. It just seems like an odd reverse loophole in the rules that could very easily be corrected by the AJGA without any adverse impacts.

[hcopenhagenh]

Ban me.  I do not care.  Turtleback has reading comprehension issues.  I obviously do not belong at this site because there are several here that are mental midgets includes the moderator.  

 

[Lihu]

On 2/18/2016 at 2:07 PM, freshmanUTA said:

Unfortunately for us both, the definition of a Junior Golfer is "Any golfer who has not finished secondary school or turned 19, whichever comes first." 

That means once you have a diploma you're SOL no matter how old you are.

I myself have found some amateur/Junior tournaments that will let me play until I'm 19 regardless of graduation, but AJGA is holding firm on their ruling it looks.

Sorry man, I wish you the best!

Wish there were a rule like that for high school level scholastic competitions as well. An MIT student entered into the same group as mine (he was also 15 years old), and my partners and I were pretty sure he got help from upper class MIT students possibly some grad students? He won first place while we got 2nd, and it was not even a close race. It was like distance race with hybrid car going against our 70s Cutlass Buick with the same amount of fuel.

I feel like D1 college students would kill any high school students with their superior game skills from playing in more competitive situations and access to much better training facilities. It would be like a PGA player playing mini-tours.

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes ago, jamo said:

When there's a rule like this that seemingly pointlessly omits someone from participation, it's usually best to wonder why that rule is there in the first place. Is there any reason that someone in college would be disallowed from playing in an AJGA event? Well, sure, I guess they mean to keep the tournaments for college golf preparation. Then, what about kids like @Pretzel who are in college but not on a golf team? Is there any logical reason, stated by the AJGA or otherwise, that sort of kid should be kept out of an AJGA event? Not that I see. It just seems like an odd reverse loophole in the rules that could very easily be corrected by the AJGA without any adverse impacts.

Right.  I would suspect that @Pretzel's particular situation is enough of a rarity that it just has never really come up, so the rule was "good enough" as it was.  Simply changing the "Once a player starts college, they are no longer eligible, regardless of age" part of it to "Once a player starts playing college golf, they are no longer eligible, regardless of age" seems like it would easily rectify that.

I'm trying to think of a downside to that change and can't, as of right now.

[Ernest Jones]

17 minutes ago, hcopenhagenh said:

Ban me.  I do not care.  Turtleback has reading comprehension issues.  I obviously do not belong at this site because there are several here that are mental midgets includes the moderator.  

 

I'm actually quite tall.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Ernest Jones said:

I'm actually quite tall.

A mental giant as they say?

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Wish there were a rule like that for high school level scholastic competitions as well. An MIT student entered into the same group as mine (he was also 15 years old), and my partners and I were pretty sure he got help from upper class MIT students possibly some grad students? He won first place while we got 2nd, and it was not even a close race. It was like distance race with hybrid car going against our 70s Cutlass Buick with the same amount of fuel.

I feel like D1 college students would kill any high school students with their superior game skills from playing in a more competitive situation and access to much better training facilities. It would be like a PGA player playing mini-tours.

I wonder if the rule in question exists for this reason.  Are they worried that the college golf teams would encourage players that are not quite good enough for their team to come practice with them all the time to provide some extra competition to their team players?  Seems unlikely, but I'm just brainstorming and really trying to figure out the basis for that last rule.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

I wonder if the rule in question exists for this reason.  Are they worried that the college golf teams would encourage players that are not quite good enough for their team to come practice with them all the time to provide some extra competition to their team players?  Seems unlikely, but I'm just brainstorming and really trying to figure out the basis for that last rule.

That's not allowed under NCAA rules. You can't just practice with the soccer team but not be "on" the soccer team, for example.

Even at Division III this matters. I can't have someone not on the team partaking in any official team activities, the college won't pay for them to practice or play the course at which the college golfers play, etc. They get no support within the sport unless they're on the roster for that sport.

[Golfingdad]

Just now, iacas said:

That's not allowed under NCAA rules. You can't just practice with the soccer team but not be "on" the soccer team, for example.

Even at Division III this matters. I can't have someone not on the team partaking in any official team activities, the college won't pay for them to practice or play the course at which the college golfers play, etc. They get no support within the sport unless they're on the roster for that sport.

Noted.

Then I got nothing.  

[iacas]

 

 

[k-troop]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Wish there were a rule like that for high school level scholastic competitions as well. An MIT student entered into the same group as mine (he was also 15 years old), and my partners and I were pretty sure he got help from upper class MIT students possibly some grad students? He won first place while we got 2nd, and it was not even a close race. It was like distance race with hybrid car going against our 70s Cutlass Buick with the same amount of fuel.

I feel like D1 college students would kill any high school students with their superior game skills from playing in more competitive situations and access to much better training facilities. It would be like a PGA player playing mini-tours.

In the case you describe @Lihu it would actually make sense to exclude college students from a "junior" competition.  A HS student shouldn't have to compete in a math or science competition against a math/science student at an elite university, even if they're the same age.  The University student has completed all of their high school level education/competition and should move on to college-level competition.

The AJGA situation is not analogous (obviously).  The junior golfer who happens to be in college has moved on to college level academics but has not moved on to college level golf competition.

Should we speculate as to the "point" of the AJGA's rule?

Rationale 1:  College coaches look for talent at AJGA events, so the AJGA wants to reserve competitive spots to golfers who can compete for college scholarships.  Excluding current college players doesn't make sense under this rationale, excepting the very small class of players who have full rides at large D1 programs.  Everyone else still wants more scholarship or a bigger, better program and therefore would benefit from AJGA competition under this rationale.

Rationale 2:  Players who have "played" at the college level have had an opportunity to compete at a level beyond what HS golfers get, and therefore would have an unfair advantage at AJGA events.  How would you define playing?  If you play in an open qualifier for walk-on spots to the college team have you "played"?  What if you're on the team and practice with the team but haven't earned a spot on the tournament squad yet?  Also, a HS golfer who has made it to the match-play portion of a US Amateur, or a sectional US Open qualifier, has "competed at a level beyond what HS golfers get."  Should they be excluded?

Rationale 3:  The goal of the AJGA is to get players noticed by coaches so they can play college golf.  This rationale partially justifies excluding a college student who is not a college player.  If you're already in college, you can find other ways to get noticed by the coach (such as playing in an open qualifier for walk-on spots, assuming the school has walk-on spots available) as @hcopenhagenh has pointed out.  Still, @Pretzel (or any other student) can only be a walk-on at the school they're currently attending, and would have a much better chance of being "noticed by coaches" the his pool of possible coaches is expanded to more than 1.

Rationale 4:  most college golfers come from the pool of HS golfers, so it makes sense to limit AJGA competitions to HS golfers.  I don't necessarily disagree.  It's a somewhat arbitrary line at the margins, but it is a line which applies in the vast majority of situations.  Additionally, limiting AJGA events to HS golfers under 19 also mitigates the possibility that a player might intentionally hold himself back in order to increase his chances of impressing a college coach through junior play.

[turtleback]

23 hours ago, Lihu said:

Wish there were a rule like that for high school level scholastic competitions as well. An MIT student entered into the same group as mine (he was also 15 years old), and my partners and I were pretty sure he got help from upper class MIT students possibly some grad students? He won first place while we got 2nd, and it was not even a close race. It was like distance race with hybrid car going against our 70s Cutlass Buick with the same amount of fuel.

I feel like D1 college students would kill any high school students with their superior game skills from playing in more competitive situations and access to much better training facilities. It would be like a PGA player playing mini-tours.

These are not remotely comparable or analogous.  

Does a 15 year old benefit scholastically (the basis for the competition) from being at an elite college?  Yes.  
Does a 15 year old benefit golfing wise (the basis for the competition) by taking his classes at college but otherwise having no contact with the golf team?  No.

Spoiler

And as an aside, the kid got into MIT at age 15.  Why would you and your teammates assume he cheated?  Seems like a pretty crappy assumption unless you had some evidence other than the fact that the kid's answers made him look really really smart.

 

 

[Golfingdad]

20 hours ago, k-troop said:

Rationale 1:  College coaches look for talent at AJGA events, so the AJGA wants to reserve competitive spots to golfers who can compete for college scholarships.  Excluding current college players doesn't make sense under this rationale, excepting the very small class of players who have full rides at large D1 programs.  Everyone else still wants more scholarship or a bigger, better program and therefore would benefit from AJGA competition under this rationale.

I really like your post, mainly because you attempted to try and provide some explanation for perhaps why this rule exists.  I have one nitpick though with the above:

Wouldn't NCAA "tampering" (not sure if that's the right word) rules prohibit the college players who are walk-ons or partial scholarship holders from benefitting from these competitions?  Other college coaches aren't permitted to lure players away from their current school by offering them more benefits, are they?

More importantly, did you, @iacas, get a response yet from the AJGA to your twitter post?

[Lihu]

24 minutes ago, turtleback said:

These are not remotely comparable or analogous.  

Does a 15 year old benefit scholastically (the basis for the competition) from being at an elite college?  Yes.  
Does a 15 year old benefit golfing wise (the basis for the competition) by taking his classes at college but otherwise having no contact with the golf team?  No.

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I didn't assume that he cheated, as only one individual was required to be 15. My partners were 17 and 18 and high school seniors as was I. I was 16 years old as freshman in college. That was a pretty crappy assumption on your part regarding my overall view of life.

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And as an aside, the kid got into MIT at age 15.  Why would you and your teammates assume he cheated?  Seems like a pretty crappy assumption unless you had some evidence other than the fact that the kid's answers made him look really really smart.

 

 

 

 

It seemed like a good comparison to me, but obviously was already noted by @k-troop.  You didn't really add anything to his already very good argument.

[turtleback]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It seemed like a good comparison to me, but obviously was already noted by @k-troop.  You didn't really add anything to his already very good argument.

As is frequently the case, a reply is made to a post after it is read and before the whole thread is read.  Why you would comment on that when everyone including you yourself does the same thing is beyond me, unless you got a little butt hurt.  In which case, I apologize.

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, turtleback said:

As is frequently the case, a reply is made to a post after it is read and before the whole thread is read.  Why you would comment on that when everyone including you yourself does the same thing is beyond me, unless you got a little butt hurt.  In which case, I apologize.

Nope, no butt hurt, nor an apology required. It was the assumption that we assumed the MIT student was cheating put me off a little bit.

The kid was definitely very smart, the rules do not exclude other students helping him. Just no adults or working engineers. I just found it hilarious that his solution was more than two decades advanced than ours due to his better education/intelligence and better equipped labs/etc.

[iacas]

48 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

More importantly, did you, @iacas, get a response yet from the AJGA to your twitter post?

No. Not yet…

[k-troop]

3 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I really like your post, mainly because you attempted to try and provide some explanation for perhaps why this rule exists.  I have one nitpick though with the above:

Wouldn't NCAA "tampering" (not sure if that's the right word) rules prohibit the college players who are walk-ons or partial scholarship holders from benefitting from these competitions?  Other college coaches aren't permitted to lure players away from their current school by offering them more benefits, are they?

Point taken.  I think my point still stands, though it would require a complex understanding of NCAA transfer rules (which I don't possess) to make it.  Regardless my rationale #1 would clearly favor allowing a college student who is fully transfer eligible to compete in an AJGA event (assuming they still met the other criteria of junior-ness).

And @turtleback you may need to cut back on the red meat, have a SALAD or something.