Swinging With the Body/Loose Arms and Wrists

[Mr. Desmond]

1 hour ago, Marty2019 said:

I made a swing change and it has caused me to completely change my philosophy of how to swing a club.   Up until a couple of days ago, I thought that using relaxed hands and arms and centrifugal force would allow the club to "swing itself."  I had great results with my driver but I was really struggling with my irons and kind of struggling with my hybrids.   So I went to the range with just my irons to try to figure out how to hit an iron. 

I tried everything.  Keep my weight on the inside of by back foot instead of rolling onto the outside of my back foot.   Shorten my backswing.  Keep my elbow tucked in.  Get on plane.   Get in the slot.   Everything I'm supposed to do.   Then, one thing made it all work.   And that is, change my grip to where my hands are more on top of the club.  Rotate my left hand and my right hand towards each other.   Think of Ben Hogan's grip in his book.  Before, my grip had my hands more opposed to each other.   Changing my grip to look more like Ben Hogan's grip feels awkward at address, but it is wonderful at the top of the backswing,

 

 

 

 

Glad a grip change helped you, although Hogan was over 50 years ago and I think his "secret" was his secret for his swing. And I read the book once for historical purposes but would not pick it up again. I like the way modern instructors pick up on common fundamentals and biomechanics of the swing. I don't think the type of grip is a fundamental other than you need to have your hands on the grip to swing a club. Of course, I'm not big on Hoganish details or terms like slot any more. Yes, heresy to some.

Don't know if you used video to make certain you were doing everything correctly beforehand, but it helps.

As to the topic, I think we all have different issues and the OP was discussing the body, force and relaxation. I don't know about relaxation. I like to think of the golf swing as lacking tension.

 I see a lot of armsy swings on the range -- my early instruction was very armsy-related. I've spent 3+ years trying to get rid of "armsy." What helps for me is isolating the armsiness by not using a club or pulling/pushing my arms - I get the nylon tubing that people use for resistance with grips, put it high in the door, and then do a pull down using one arm, the other arm wrapped around the ribcage, and then use the lower body to pull down - the pull down is done with golf posture and the motion is your downswing. You feel the lower body, hips and then the shoulders. Takes the arms out.

Good luck to all.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Desmond

[Marty2019]

33 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Glad a grip change helped you, although Hogan was over 50 years ago and I think his "secret" was his secret for his swing. And I read the book once for historical purposes but would not pick it up again. I like the way modern instructors pick up on common fundamentals and biomechanics of the swing. I don't think the type of grip is a fundamental other than you need to have your hands on the grip to swing a club. Of course, I'm not big on Hoganish details or terms like slot any more. Yes, heresy to some.

Don't know if you used video to make certain you were doing everything correctly beforehand, but it helps.

As to the topic, I think we all have different issues and the OP was discussing the body, force and relaxation. I don't know about relaxation. I like to think of the golf swing as lacking tension.

 I see a lot of armsy swings on the range -- my early instruction was very armsy-related. I've spent 3+ years trying to get rid of "armsy." What helps for me is isolating the armsiness by not using a club or pulling/pushing my arms - I get the nylon tubing that people use for resistance with grips, put it high in the door, and then do a pull down using one arm, the other arm wrapped around the ribcage, and then use the lower body to pull down - the pull down is done with golf posture and the motion is your downswing. You feel the lower body, hips and then the shoulders. Takes the arms out.

Good luck to all.

This is what I'm talking about. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2imbfCntZc

And yes, I have video'd my own swing and it has helped me.  

But my basic point is, in terms of "loose arms and wrists," yes, one should swing with the body, but as far as "loose" arms and wrists, relaxed maybe, but not loose.   And what changed my mind about it was a grip change that gives me much more control.   Before, I was intentionally trying not to control the club with my hands, instead, just using them as hinges.   But now, for me, it seems like a much better way to swing the club is to get my hands more in control of the club, not less.  That's the change I have made, and based on a very limited sample size, it is going to help me immensely. 

 

 

[Mr. Desmond]

15 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

This is what I'm talking about. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2imbfCntZc

And yes, I have video'd my own swing and it has helped me.  

But my basic point is, in terms of "loose arms and wrists," yes, one should swing with the body, but as far as "loose" arms and wrists, relaxed maybe, but not loose.   And what changed my mind about it was a grip change that gives me much more control.   Before, I was intentionally trying not to control the club with my hands, instead, just using them as hinges.   But now, for me, it seems like a much better way to swing the club is to get my hands more in control of the club, not less.  That's the change I have made, and based on a very limited sample size, it is going to help me immensely. 

 

 

Glad it helped you. I go to an instructor and he has me avoiding some youtube instruction vids. Screws with your mind and instruction. 

Relaxed, loose, etc. I think it is a matter of degrees, and it's tough to discuss in a writing. I guess you could try a scale of 1-10 in terms of tight to loose but then everyone would calibrate differently. Loose is not the correct term for the OP - my guess a degree of relaxation is his obective. That's why I think of the swing as a lack of tension. I think we'd all agree that one needs to control the path and clubface so an amount of control is needed -- but the question is whether all of that comes from what has occurred before impact.

My swing thoughts change on a daily basis - but the last one was "my tempo, my sequencing." Not much of a thought for anyone else but it put the image in my head of what part of the sequencing I was working on ... and to swing with my tempo ...

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mr. Desmond

[natureboy]

On 3/5/2016 at 11:22 AM, mnguy19 said:

I know we keep going back "feel ain't real" but wouldn't it be a true statement to say that the arms and wrists should be relaxed throughout the swing? I've never heard anyone suggest tensing up the arms during the swing is the secret to more distance. You just can't whip the club with tense arms, it just isn't possible. 

You interpret 'relaxed' as 'not tense', 'not locked out' or 'not in rigor mortis'?

On 3/5/2016 at 11:44 AM, Lihu said:

No, the opposite. Your arm muscles keep the arms from buckling and provide stability for your wrists which in turn provide stability and speed for the club.

It might feel like you are relaxing the arm muscles, but you are only relaxing the ones not used in making the swing. The ones used for your swing are probably very tense. <passively resisting torques?>

You interpret 'relaxed' as 'limp', 'wet noodle', 'zero muscle tone', 'rag doll', 'Gumby without the wire'?

Do your arm 'feels' extend into your shoulders / rotator cuff? Personally, I feel a very passive lead arm, a slight extensor action in the trail arm (triceps) and 'resistance' in both forearms. Meanwhile I am actively exerting effort with legs core and throwing muscles in shoulder and back.

 

There's a huge gulf between those different interpretations of that word. You would likely agree for just how 'engaged' or 'active' (in-between extremes of 'rigid' and 'limp') the muscles in the arms should be if we could just measure your muscles during your own swings. I think feel isn't always real, but what's even more true is that people interpret words differently and place different emphasis on connotative word meanings.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, natureboy said:

There's a huge gulf between those different interpretations of that word. You would likely agree for just how 'engaged' or 'active' (in-between extremes of 'rigid' and 'limp') the muscles in the arms should be if we could just measure your muscles during your own swings. I think feel isn't always real, but what's even more true is that people interpret words differently and place different emphasis on connotative word meanings.

Sure, that's reasonable. We probably need to define what is meant by "engaged" and "active", though.

[natureboy]

16 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Sure, that's reasonable. We probably need to define what is meant by "engaged" and "active", though.

When referring to muscles it's a sliding scale. When you stand erect, you can be 'relaxed' yet there are many engaged / active muscles. Some constantly some on and off. Engaged and active can mean anything over 100% inactive to 100% active / 'maximum effort'.

Also, muscles can be unconsciously engaged by motions of other muscles or body parts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretch_shortening_cycle

Edited March 29, 2016 by natureboy

[BaconNEggs]

I realize this thread is over a year old, but stumbled upon it and thought I had to comment given my recent experience. I'll admit it's somewhat difficult to describe personal feels, and obviously there's a lot of confusion and subjective interpretation into what certain terms mean, so hopefully I'll be able to provide further insight into the feel that I have that is more clear.

In the last 10 years, the only feel that had a substantial and lasting improvement on my ball striking was the idea of having my whole body being absolutely as loose/relaxed as possible, while still being able to maintain leverage in the swing (i.e. minimal slack in the arms). Apart from the takeaway, my arms and wrists feel 'passive' or on autopilot while my body turns back. Beyond the takeaway, my conscious activity is similar to what I have when I throw a baseball, i.e. virtually none regarding my technique and all about the shot I'm going to hit (or pitch I'm going to throw in baseball).

My grip at address is very loose (I would say it feels like a 2/10). My body is in an athletic stance but feels fairly limber, like a free-throw shooter in basketball. The takeaway goes back and momentum propels the club upward, at which point it eventually hits the top and for a moment pauses before beginning to drop. This is the make or break moment; my bad habit and what I've fought for my whole golf life has been to actively swing from the top with my arms and body, leading to poor striking (lots of fat shots) and horrible direction (big hooks). If I successfully maintain the 'passive' mindset, my sequencing is far better and ball striking is significantly improved, and it feels effortless. I know from a physics standpoint that there are a lot of forces in action and you're talking hundreds or even thousands of pounds of force being generated. So there is a lot of force flowing through the arms, but it feels largely reactive, which is the key to it feeling effortless. If I'm struggling to not strike at the ball, I actually exaggerate the thought of passivity by thinking "do NOTHING" at the top of the swing. It's unnerving at first as you might think you'll just drop the club head straight down into the ground a few feet behind the ball, but that never actually happens (for me, at least).  

The best analogy I have in terms of looseness and how much conscious effort I have is throwing a kettle bell from a golfing stance. When I pick up a kettle bell, my grip is as loose as possible while still being able to hold the kettle bell-- there's no reason I need to squeeze it, that just unnecessarily adds tension and reduces my ability to freely swing the kettle bell back and forth. And when swinging it back I maintain a loose feeling. As loose as possible while still being able to hold the kettle bell and not lose balance. As an aside, you will almost never sway because if you do, the weight of the kettle bell is such that you really can't throw it off your back foot like you can with a golf club-- helps the feel of not swaying for me. And when the kettle bell hits the top, it pauses for a moment before dropping, at which point I reactively move the body and arms in a fluid motion to toss it forward. It is almost impossible for me to have the same 'hitting at' impulse with a heavy kettle bell. It would throw your balance and timing so far off you might actually hurt yourself. To me, the golf swing feels very similar. Be as limber as possible while still being able to maintain leverage and balance in the swing. The issue for me is that the club is so much lighter, it can be hard to be patient and reactive. But once you trust the motion, the amount of conscious exertion in the swing is minimal, while the unconscious exertion remains high and the sequencing is far superior. 

My full PW is about 130 yards. If I want to hit a 100 yard PW, apart from minor changes in setup, the only conscious change in my swing is the effort in the takeaway (less), which then limits backswing length. The downswing feels like the exact same amount of conscious effort, i.e. very little. 

I've been typically shooting 90-100, with occasional high 80s for most of my life. My low was 82 about 10 years ago and since then I've had maybe one or two rounds below 85. While short game hasn't been good in years, ball striking was always what held me back. Constant lost ball penalties. Fat wedges when I would finally put myself in good position off the tee. The 'passive' swing feel was a game changer. My last five rounds have all been low to mid 80s, and trending lower as my 'new' swing gets more ingrained. I shot an 80 with 38 putts last weekend (including 2 3-putt bogeys). I shot a 38 with 17 putts on Friday. It was the easiest, laziest sub-40 round I've ever shot. I'm nearly breaking 80 with a very neglected short game (that is also improving using the same swing thought, by the way).  

I finally get what guys like Shawn Clement and David Lee are teaching when they say let gravity power the golf swing. I get what an 'effortless' swing feels like. I feel like I've broken a mental barrier that has prevented my ball striking from improving for over a decade now. Goals that haven't changed in years are basically an afterthought for next season. I can actually focus on improving other parts of my game instead of saying "I'll work on that once I'm happy with ball striking." 

 

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, BaconNEggs said:

I realize this thread is over a year old, but stumbled upon it and thought I had to comment given my recent experience. I'll admit it's somewhat difficult to describe personal feels, and obviously there's a lot of confusion and subjective interpretation into what certain terms mean, so hopefully I'll be able to provide further insight into the feel that I have that is more clear.

In the last 10 years, the only feel that had a substantial and lasting improvement on my ball striking was the idea of having my whole body being absolutely as loose/relaxed as possible, while still being able to maintain leverage in the swing (i.e. minimal slack in the arms). Apart from the takeaway, my arms and wrists feel 'passive' or on autopilot while my body turns back. Beyond the takeaway, my conscious activity is similar to what I have when I throw a baseball, i.e. virtually none regarding my technique and all about the shot I'm going to hit (or pitch I'm going to throw in baseball).

My grip at address is very loose (I would say it feels like a 2/10). My body is in an athletic stance but feels fairly limber, like a free-throw shooter in basketball. The takeaway goes back and momentum propels the club upward, at which point it eventually hits the top and for a moment pauses before beginning to drop. This is the make or break moment; my bad habit and what I've fought for my whole golf life has been to actively swing from the top with my arms and body, leading to poor striking (lots of fat shots) and horrible direction (big hooks). If I successfully maintain the 'passive' mindset, my sequencing is far better and ball striking is significantly improved, and it feels effortless. I know from a physics standpoint that there are a lot of forces in action and you're talking hundreds or even thousands of pounds of force being generated. So there is a lot of force flowing through the arms, but it feels largely reactive, which is the key to it feeling effortless. If I'm struggling to not strike at the ball, I actually exaggerate the thought of passivity by thinking "do NOTHING" at the top of the swing. It's unnerving at first as you might think you'll just drop the club head straight down into the ground a few feet behind the ball, but that never actually happens (for me, at least).  

The best analogy I have in terms of looseness and how much conscious effort I have is throwing a kettle bell from a golfing stance. When I pick up a kettle bell, my grip is as loose as possible while still being able to hold the kettle bell-- there's no reason I need to squeeze it, that just unnecessarily adds tension and reduces my ability to freely swing the kettle bell back and forth. And when swinging it back I maintain a loose feeling. As loose as possible while still being able to hold the kettle bell and not lose balance. As an aside, you will almost never sway because if you do, the weight of the kettle bell is such that you really can't throw it off your back foot like you can with a golf club-- helps the feel of not swaying for me. And when the kettle bell hits the top, it pauses for a moment before dropping, at which point I reactively move the body and arms in a fluid motion to toss it forward. It is almost impossible for me to have the same 'hitting at' impulse with a heavy kettle bell. It would throw your balance and timing so far off you might actually hurt yourself. To me, the golf swing feels very similar. Be as limber as possible while still being able to maintain leverage and balance in the swing. The issue for me is that the club is so much lighter, it can be hard to be patient and reactive. But once you trust the motion, the amount of conscious exertion in the swing is minimal, while the unconscious exertion remains high and the sequencing is far superior. 

My full PW is about 130 yards. If I want to hit a 100 yard PW, apart from minor changes in setup, the only conscious change in my swing is the effort in the takeaway (less), which then limits backswing length. The downswing feels like the exact same amount of conscious effort, i.e. very little. 

I've been typically shooting 90-100, with occasional high 80s for most of my life. My low was 82 about 10 years ago and since then I've had maybe one or two rounds below 85. While short game hasn't been good in years, ball striking was always what held me back. Constant lost ball penalties. Fat wedges when I would finally put myself in good position off the tee. The 'passive' swing feel was a game changer. My last five rounds have all been low to mid 80s, and trending lower as my 'new' swing gets more ingrained. I shot an 80 with 38 putts last weekend (including 2 3-putt bogeys). I shot a 38 with 17 putts on Friday. It was the easiest, laziest sub-40 round I've ever shot. I'm nearly breaking 80 with a very neglected short game (that is also improving using the same swing thought, by the way).  

I finally get what guys like Shawn Clement and David Lee are teaching when they say let gravity power the golf swing. I get what an 'effortless' swing feels like. I feel like I've broken a mental barrier that has prevented my ball striking from improving for over a decade now. Goals that haven't changed in years are basically an afterthought for next season. I can actually focus on improving other parts of my game instead of saying "I'll work on that once I'm happy with ball striking." 

Guessing that if someone tried to pull the club out of your hands with your 2/10 grip strength it wouldn't come out of your grip.

My instructor said that that's how it should feel, and that the arms should feel "loose", but controlled. The swing shouldn't have any tension in any muscles not used in the swing. The muscles used for the swing should be fully engaged. Or as engaged as you can make them.

Even though it feels like it's gravity, it's not. Your muscles are pretty actively giving the club its velocity. The more you can engage them, the farther you hit.

[BaconNEggs]

Yup, agree with all of that. If someone tried to pull the club, my grip would probably tighten up to a 7 or 8, maybe even harder depending on how hard they were pulling-- I think my grip tightens near/during transition, probably even more closer to impact. I think I'd lose the club at the top of the swing if I tried to maintain the 2 feeling. The alternative, of feeling a grip pressure of 7 or 8 at address, throws off my takeaway and makes my arms and hands feel like an entity separate from the rest of my body. By keeping a passive sort of feel, I believe it allows me to focus on the objective at hand (my shot), and how to do that slinging this club into that ball. Once I consciously think about the pieces of the swing like my arms, it turns into a major multitasking effort trying to coordinate the arms and body simultaneously, and just leads to all sorts of nasty inconsistency. 

I've heard plenty of instructors talk about target focus and that was something I also never fully grasped until now. No active mechanical swing thought allows me to maintain focus on the type of shot I'm trying to hit. 

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

Even though it feels like it's gravity, it's not. Your muscles are pretty actively giving the club its velocity. The more you can engage them, the farther you hit.

Oh for sure. I doubt gravity is a significant source of power in the golf swing. I actually don't like calling it gravity, but I now understand the feel that they describe. If I want to hit it far, my backswing tends to be a little bit longer, and although I still don't consciously think about engaging my muscles more, they're definitely being engaged more aggressively. 

[Lihu]

The grip feel shouldn't change much, but the actual grip might? Not sure, but it feels pretty consistent for me. Better players have really high hand or grip strength.

 

8 hours ago, BaconNEggs said:

Oh for sure. I doubt gravity is a significant source of power in the golf swing. I actually don't like calling it gravity, but I now understand the feel that they describe. If I want to hit it far, my backswing tends to be a little bit longer, and although I still don't consciously think about engaging my muscles more, they're definitely being engaged more aggressively. 

A lot of golfers call it "Getting into the 'slot'." Basically referring to the effortless feeling of a good swing.

[iacas]

14 hours ago, BaconNEggs said:

Yup, agree with all of that. If someone tried to pull the club, my grip would probably tighten up to a 7 or 8, maybe even harder depending on how hard they were pulling-- I think my grip tightens near/during transition, probably even more closer to impact.

Then that's a sign it's far, far too loose at setup.

PGA Tour players and other good players have a far more consistent grip pressure throughout the swing than amateurs, who almost all squeeze and hold on much, much tighter as they transition into the faster parts of the golf swing.

Rather than 2/10 you should maybe aim for 6/10 or so.

14 hours ago, BaconNEggs said:

I think I'd lose the club at the top of the swing if I tried to maintain the 2 feeling. The alternative, of feeling a grip pressure of 7 or 8 at address, throws off my takeaway and makes my arms and hands feel like an entity separate from the rest of my body.

I'd suggest you learn to work with the proper grip pressure than what you're doing now. Also, do not confuse grip pressure with wrist and forearm tension. One of the things good players do is have a firm grip but still relatively non-tense wrists/forearms.

[Jack Watson]

It all depends how you are trying to use your body and how that's affecting you.  

If you are in an absolutely safe condition and within range of motion you will be able to recruit more of yourself.  A LOT more.

The more your body dislikes what you are trying to do the worse the results will be.  There's self protection systems that CANNOT be overcome.

People tear themselves up fighting this and wonder why things won't be consistent.

I like a certain amount of as Hogan said live tension.  Too loose is just sloppy for me.  

It all depends on what you choose to do.

 

[Kalnoky]

On 3/6/2016 at 3:34 AM, Marty2019 said:

I've gone through the same issues.   I picked up all sorts of new distance (20-30 yards on my driver) by relaxing my hands and arms.   But then when I'm on the range, the better I hit it, the better I want to hit it, and then I start swinging harder, and that means my arms and hands have to tighten up to maintain control of the club, and then I hit it worse.  

^^ that describes me perfectly. I get greedy and start trying to use my hands to force it to go further, which has the opposite effect

[saevel25]

I grip the clubs pretty firm, but no where near the amount that would cause unwanted tension in the arms.

ive seem guys hit it a ton with a more brutish form and with those who look like they just whip the club through lazily. 

It just depends on the golfer.  

[sharpljp]

So I read this entire thread last night.. excellent stuff from all contributors..

I too have benefited from a very loose grip -> loose wrists -> loose arms.. but..

I'm intrigued by the statement of, "the better players, or real low handicappers, actually have a strong/tight grip but keep their wrists/forearms/arms loose."

I have made improvements by keeping my grip loose (3/10 on the looseness scale) and definitely have been striking the ball clean, although sometimes the club face is left just a little bit open, or closed, at impact. I've also noticed that sometimes I feel like I'm a little too loose and need to tighten up my grip to stay in control. 

But it sounds to me like I need to start trying to practice with a tighter grip (6/10 on the scale) while keeping my wrists/forearms/arms relatively loose. Then.. I would probably be squaring up the ball more consistently and won't feel as sloppy at impact. Just want to make sure I am following this correctly.. awesome thread and contributions all around!

[colin007]

3 hours ago, sharpljp said:

So I read this entire thread last night.. excellent stuff from all contributors..

I too have benefited from a very loose grip -> loose wrists -> loose arms.. but..

I'm intrigued by the statement of, "the better players, or real low handicappers, actually have a strong/tight grip but keep their wrists/forearms/arms loose."

I have made improvements by keeping my grip loose (3/10 on the looseness scale) and definitely have been striking the ball clean, although sometimes the club face is left just a little bit open, or closed, at impact. I've also noticed that sometimes I feel like I'm a little too loose and need to tighten up my grip to stay in control. 

But it sounds to me like I need to start trying to practice with a tighter grip (6/10 on the scale) while keeping my wrists/forearms/arms relatively loose. Then.. I would probably be squaring up the ball more consistently and won't feel as sloppy at impact. Just want to make sure I am following this correctly.. awesome thread and contributions all around!

 I think the bottom line is consistency in your grip pressure. If you're starting at a 3, that's probably not strong enough to hold on to the grip thru impact so you instinctively change your pressure to compensate. Squeezing and relaxing your grip throughout the swing leads to inconsistency.

[iacas]

41 minutes ago, colin007 said:

 I think the bottom line is consistency in your grip pressure. If you're starting at a 3, that's probably not strong enough to hold on to the grip thru impact so you instinctively change your pressure to compensate. Squeezing and relaxing your grip throughout the swing leads to inconsistency.

Yup.

6/10 or 7/10 is strong enough to hold onto the clubhead while it hits the ball and the ground.

[Mr. Desmond]

Ahh, but  some say starts as 3/10, at the top, a 4/10, at contact 7/10, by the time you finish you are 8/10. The pressure increases as one achieves the strike. I have found it more fluid to start at 3/10 but I'm just a struggling mid-capper at the present. The above is from tathatagolf. Hopefully, I can eventually achieve a relaxed 6-7/10 consistency, but at the moment, 7/10 "feels" too tense at the start.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Mr. Desmond