2016 Masters Toonamint Discussion Thread

[natureboy]

3 minutes ago, Gunther said:

My editor is messing up again.  

What I was trying to say is that I can barely conceptualize a "stock fade" with short irons, which is why I assumed draw when he and Mike discussed "stock 9" before the shot. Never could cut those little clubs.

Maybe it was 'stock swing' (full) with a 'fade' setup / bias?

Edited April 12, 2016 by natureboy

[skydog]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

My editor is messing up again.  

What I was trying to say is that I can barely conceptualize a "stock fade" with short irons, which is why I assumed draw when he and Mike discussed "stock 9" before the shot. Never could cut those little clubs.

I also could have sworn that in the post round interview he said that he and Greller decided on holding a slight draw against the wind into the middle of the green, and that when he got up to the ball he changed his mind and decided on trying to peel a fade towards the pin. I could easily be wrong though.

[Chris E]

12 minutes ago, skydog said:

I also could have sworn that in the post round interview he said that he and Greller decided on holding a slight draw against the wind into the middle of the green, and that when he got up to the ball he changed his mind and decided on trying to peel a fade towards the pin. I could easily be wrong though.

That's what I remember as well. 

[Scotsclaff]

12 hours ago, newtogolf said:

I felt the same way, I'm not taking any credit away from Willett, he played very well on Sunday, shooting a 67.  What's difficult to resolve is that It took an extraordinary screw up on Spieths part for Willett to win.  Had Speith not blown up on 12 but instead shot bogeys on 3 more holes it would have felt to me more like Willett won it versus Spieth handed it to him.  

I get golf is hard, and Augusta is a really challenging course but you don't expect a tournament like that to be decided on a quad on the 12th hole.    

But he did.

How many times have you heard golfers,commentators,analysts or fans say'Watch out for Amen corner".It bit Spieth's arse.

Loads of ifs and buts about what Spieth may have done and may not have done,he chunked a couple of shots and blew his chance. Danny Willett saw his opportunity and nailed it beautifully.

I'm enjoying the Masters fallout convo,good stuff.

[pumaAttack]

3 hours ago, ppine said:

Looked at another way, the Masters' field of golfers is the best there is.

Augusta is as hard of a golf course that exists. It keeps getting longer.

There is tremendous mental pressure leading up to the event and for four straight days.

It is like squeezing a watermelon seed, eventually it comes squirting out.

No one should be surprised that the best golfers in the world are going to make some mistakes.

 

The Masters is the weakest field of any major...

[Natural Patrick]

7 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

Worst part about the Masters?  It's a two month gap until the US Open.

Not for me. The Players is my 2nd Favorite tournament of the year.

5 hours ago, ppine said:

Looked at another way, the Masters' field of golfers is the best there is.

Augusta is as hard of a golf course that exists. It keeps getting longer.

There is tremendous mental pressure leading up to the event and for four straight days.

It is like squeezing a watermelon seed, eventually it comes squirting out.

No one should be surprised that the best golfers in the world are going to make some mistakes.

 

Nope. the U.S Open is the Best field.

[tdiii]

Just now, Natural Patrick said:

Not for me. The Players is my 2nd Favorite tournament of the year.

Nope. the U.S Open is the Best field.

I believe the Players has the best field. 

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Natural Patrick said:

Not for me. The Players is my 2nd Favorite tournament of the year.

Nope. the U.S Open is the Best field.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/694397-the-players-is-hardest-tournament-to-win

The Player's has the toughest field as per a 2003-2009 study. I don't think how they select the field has changed since then. The PGA Championship has a better field than the US Open. Primarily because the US Open allows amateurs to play and they rarely contend. 

 

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Primarily because the US Open allows amateurs to play and they rarely contend. 

As opposed to those teaching pros that are tearing up the leaderboards down to the wire at the PGA? ;)

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

As opposed to those teaching pros that are tearing up the leaderboards down to the wire at the PGA? ;)

I'm just quoting a study. It could be other things as well. 

[Nosevi]

4 hours ago, skydog said:

I also could have sworn that in the post round interview he said that he and Greller decided on holding a slight draw against the wind into the middle of the green, and that when he got up to the ball he changed his mind and decided on trying to peel a fade towards the pin. I could easily be wrong though.

That's what he said.

5 hours ago, natureboy said:

My point was made largely to head off the inevitable @Nosevi narrative that the Brits are made for this sort of pressure...yadda...yadda . IMO Willett will more truly feel what Jordan felt the next time he holds a Major lead going into the final round.

From me? Surely not ?

The only thing I'd say is that in this interview he said he couldn't committ to the second shot on 12 because he didn't know the yardage, he said that in another interview too. That seems mad - the shot was about 80 yards so given the distance from the water to the pin plus the distance across the water, how long would it have taken for his caddy to say "Hold on, I'm going to get you the yardage." And to pace it off to the water's edge? Must have only been 50 paces or so. It's not like in the final group he was going to get hit with a warning for taking too much time. I actually think some experienced caddys may have done this even if they knew exactly what the yardage was to give their player time to collect themselves. Didn't do it after the second shot went in the water either so Jordan still didn't know the yardage he was trying to hit other than he had to hit it far enough not to go in the water again. 

Jordan also said in an interview he turned to his caddy and said "Buddy, it seems like we're collapsing." (1:20 in the below clip) because he needed his caddy to understand where he was mentally and do what was necessary to get them to rebound, which to his credit he did. 

It's never the caddy's fault but I could name a handful of experienced caddys who would have 'managed' their player and the situation very differently. Recognising Jordan's mind was a bit of a blur after 10 and 11, realising that the danger lay in Jordan's weak high fade they'd seen all day and reiterating that the shot had to be a draw to take the water out of it, seeing that Jordan had lost it for a time after the 12th tee shot and understanding the value of giving him the exact yardage he wanted plus the time to collect himself by pacing off the distance to the water. 

So no, I won't say our golfers are any better at performing under pressure........ but perhaps our caddies are ?

I jest to a certain extent, you have some awesome caddies over there but I could not believe what I was seeing in terms of a caddy not being in a position to see what was happening.

In terms of the yardage thing I've been following a player in a tournament before now (friend of mine) who was out of position after a tee shot on 18. No GPS allowed, the player turned to the caddy who looked to be struggling and said "Just give me the yardage." Caddy said straight away "173 to the middle of the green." Not 170 or 175 but 173. Player got down over the ball and put a committed swing on it but none of us saw the outcome until we walked back towards the fairway and on a bit - the ball was in the middle of the green. When the player asked how the caddy had known it was 173 he laughed and said he'd had no idea but a committed swing at 173 was better than a uncommitted swing having said he didn't have the yardage. 

[b101]

7 hours ago, natureboy said:

My point was made largely to head off the inevitable @Nosevi narrative that the Brits are made for this sort of pressure...yadda...yadda .

Don't see why anyone would make this point. I could understand making the point that more Brits played well because they're more used to the weather conditions (not that that totally helps when it comes to our own Open), but handling pressure? Have you ever seen us in penalty shootouts?!

1 hour ago, Nosevi said:

It's never the caddy's fault but I could name a handful of experienced caddys who would have 'managed' their player and the situation very differently.

I think I remember reading an interview with Steve Williams talking about how one of the jobs is not just giving a yardage and that occasionally he'd lie about the yardage to force his player to take a different club when he knew they weren't going to get there otherwise. I think the Greller-Spieth partnership is a good one and they'll learn from this - it's all part of gaining the experience to do it better next time.

[Nosevi]

54 minutes ago, b101 said:

I think I remember reading an interview with Steve Williams talking about how one of the jobs is not just giving a yardage and that occasionally he'd lie about the yardage to force his player to take a different club when he knew they weren't going to get there otherwise. I think the Greller-Spieth partnership is a good one and they'll learn from this - it's all part of gaining the experience to do it better next time.

I agree with this.

I do think in that particular situation Jordan needed experience on the bag but I guess you don't learn how to get back up without falling down a few times. Thing is Jordan is that good that Greller hasn't had to learn that lesson as yet. Very cliché but I think they'll be a stronger partnership having learnt that lesson.

[marcharing]

Speaking as another Brit, it was noticeable to me how Danny is an embodiment of this whole Lad, Brit, soccer type culture thing going on where there is no room for sentimentality. It's like work hard, play hard and when shit happens then just take it. That approach may have helped him down the line or maybe not. He could have had a a sympathetic word for Jordan but those sort of feelings aren't in the Brit culture. 

I do feel sorry for Jordan and I thought his conduct under the circumstances was impeccable. 

One of the previous posts said he knew someone in the equipment business that thought Danny was a prick!!! Well if that's the case then what does that make Tiger?

Edited April 13, 2016 by marcharing

[b101]

24 minutes ago, marcharing said:

 work hard, play hard and when shit happens then just take it.

From the sound of it, he does work really hard on his game and the fact that he's had to grind all the way without any handouts (ok, he had his US scholarship, but if you read on his family background, they sacrificed a lot to get him there) would definitely help build that resilient mindset.

Quote

He could have had a a sympathetic word for Jordan but those sort of feelings aren't in the Brit culture.

Disagree with this, we're one of the most apologetic cultures out there! I think it was just very awkward and suspect he probably did have a word off camera.

Quote

I do feel sorry for Jordan and I thought his conduct under the circumstances was impeccable. 

Agreed. That handover ceremony is a nightmare and based on the length of his interviews, he spent longer with the camera on him post-round than many others. Can you imagine Bubba reacting to that? On-course, his slow play annoyed the hell out of me, but the way he handled himself afterwards made me gain more respect for him. I would love him to win multiple times in the future (and I'm sure he will - at this rate, I reckon he'll outdo McIlroy) and I actually think this experience will help him in the long-run. It's just not the way anyone would have wanted the tournament to end - Danny won it, but isn't necessarily getting the credit as all people are talking about is Spieth's 'meltdown'. Over the week, Danny played far better golf from tee to green; it was just Jordan's incredible scrambling and putting that kept him in it.

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, b101 said:

From the sound of it, he does work really hard on his game and the fact that he's had to grind all the way without any handouts (ok, he had his US scholarship, but if you read on his family background, they sacrificed a lot to get him there) would definitely help build that resilient mindset.

Disagree with this, we're one of the most apologetic cultures out there! I think it was just very awkward and suspect he probably did have a word off camera.

Agreed. That handover ceremony is a nightmare and based on the length of his interviews, he spent longer with the camera on him post-round than many others. Can you imagine Bubba reacting to that? On-course, his slow play annoyed the hell out of me, but the way he handled himself afterwards made me gain more respect for him. I would love him to win multiple times in the future (and I'm sure he will - at this rate, I reckon he'll outdo McIlroy) and I actually think this experience will help him in the long-run. It's just not the way anyone would have wanted the tournament to end - Danny won it, but isn't necessarily getting the credit as all people are talking about is Spieth's 'meltdown'. Over the week, Danny played far better golf from tee to green; it was just Jordan's incredible scrambling and putting that kept him in it.

I certainly recognize Willet playing well and winning the Masters. Well, somebody had to win right? I think the thought is that if you look at the requirements necessary for Willet to have won from a statistical viewpoint, the credit becomes less...well....worthy. Jordan held a 5 shot lead. The most impressive way of beating a leader in that position is to make Eagle, birdie, birdie for example. Or, making birdies and the leader bogeys. Pros make bogeys. Pros seldom make quads, more specifically how often does Jordan quad a par 3? What Willet needed to do to win in the norm of professional golf was not done. However, a low percentage incident occurred where a solid golfer, number 2 in the world did the highly unexpected and unstatistically supported event and hit 2 balls in the water on a par 3. Yes I know it's happened before, pros have missed 2 ft putts but that doesn't increase the SV of the 2 ft putt. What Willet DID accomplish is that removing the leader from the equation due to a highly unsuspected event, he beat all the players waiting to get through that open door. Definitely a worthy accomplishment but not as much had Jordan Bogied 10-14 and Willet birdied 10-14 just as Jordan birdied 6-9.

[Braivo]

7 hours ago, Nosevi said:

That's what he said.

From me? Surely not ?

The only thing I'd say is that in this interview he said he couldn't committ to the second shot on 12 because he didn't know the yardage, he said that in another interview too. That seems mad - the shot was about 80 yards so given the distance from the water to the pin plus the distance across the water, how long would it have taken for his caddy to say "Hold on, I'm going to get you the yardage." And to pace it off to the water's edge? Must have only been 50 paces or so. It's not like in the final group he was going to get hit with a warning for taking too much time. I actually think some experienced caddys may have done this even if they knew exactly what the yardage was to give their player time to collect themselves. Didn't do it after the second shot went in the water either so Jordan still didn't know the yardage he was trying to hit other than he had to hit it far enough not to go in the water again. 

Jordan also said in an interview he turned to his caddy and said "Buddy, it seems like we're collapsing." (1:20 in the below clip) because he needed his caddy to understand where he was mentally and do what was necessary to get them to rebound, which to his credit he did. 

It's never the caddy's fault but I could name a handful of experienced caddys who would have 'managed' their player and the situation very differently. Recognising Jordan's mind was a bit of a blur after 10 and 11, realising that the danger lay in Jordan's weak high fade they'd seen all day and reiterating that the shot had to be a draw to take the water out of it, seeing that Jordan had lost it for a time after the 12th tee shot and understanding the value of giving him the exact yardage he wanted plus the time to collect himself by pacing off the distance to the water. 

So no, I won't say our golfers are any better at performing under pressure........ but perhaps our caddies are ?

I jest to a certain extent, you have some awesome caddies over there but I could not believe what I was seeing in terms of a caddy not being in a position to see what was happening.

 

I agree. It wasn't the tee shot on 12 that cost him the tournament, it was the next shot. A double bogey instead of a quad gives the whole tournament a different look and puts more pressure on DW the last few holes. 

I don't think it is possible to quantify the ability to forget a bad shot and move forward understanding that the next shot isn't any less important just because things haven't gone perfectly. Jordan has done a tremendous job of bouncing back from mistakes with strings of birdies, he even bounced back from 12 to play pretty well on the way in. 

That being said, Greller should definitely have slowed things down for Jordan before dropping and hitting that next shot no 12. He will learn to manage Jordan better as time goes on. You can also see why player / caddie relationships that seem perfect on the surface sometimes don't last. 

6 hours ago, b101 said:

I think I remember reading an interview with Steve Williams talking about how one of the jobs is not just giving a yardage and that occasionally he'd lie about the yardage to force his player to take a different club when he knew they weren't going to get there otherwise. I think the Greller-Spieth partnership is a good one and they'll learn from this - it's all part of gaining the experience to do it better next time.

Greller knew on 12 that a "stock 9 iron" could easily go long and into the back bunker, but he was ok with that. Jordan knew that and tried to get greed with the shot, missing right. 

Jack has said many, many times that you have to take the biggest miss out of play no matter what. There is simply no reason for that water to be in play for Jordan on 12, none. Greller guided him right, but young Jordan did what so many of us do when faced with similar situations. 

[Braivo]

Check out Greller's comments earlier today about Jordan. Good, heartwarming stuff. It also gives me pause a bit because while Jordan is a class act and genuine nice guy, I believe he needs to develop a bit more of a killer instinct to seek out the victory. 

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Braivo