USGA/R&A Re-Evaluating All Rules, Top to Bottom

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

I'd suggest that if you're sufficiently off line to be on the wrong putting green then you don't deserve breaks from the rules!

I've played courses where you don't have to be that far off, particularly on 3W shot on a par 5.  On my home course, the 15th green is situated where from some angles, it looks like where you should be playing to when on the 7th hole.  Players unfamiliar with the course have made this mistake quite often.  I don't see any particular logic in punishing them excessively, since they already are well off line, and in the case above, have to deal with several trees between them and the correct green.  

The rules are not intended as a punishment for errant play.

[DrvFrShow]

On 3/29/2016 at 10:24 AM, pumaAttack said:

Make a lost ball a one-stroke penalty with a drop from the area most likely to contain the golf ball. 

Being penalized stroke and distance for hitting into a pile of leafs is ridiculous. 

In the fall, courses can put into effect a local "leaf rule" calling the leaves an "abnormal ground condition" by designating it "ground under repair." It's a temporary condition in the fall lasting usually 3 weeks. If it is virtually certain that the ball is lost in the abnormal ground condition one proceeds under Rule 25-b. Courses with a lot of deciduous trees that don't do this are simply being mean and lose my business during leaf time. Also I move up a set of tees, and use my 4 or 5 iron off the tee since the ball will stay in the short grass which is usually clear.

[pumaAttack]

6 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

In the fall, courses can put into effect a local "leaf rule" calling the leaves an "abnormal ground condition" by designating it "ground under repair." It's a temporary condition in the fall lasting usually 3 weeks. If it is virtually certain that the ball is lost in the abnormal ground condition one proceeds under Rule 25-b. Courses with a lot of deciduous trees that don't do this are simply being mean and lose my business during leaf time. Also I move up a set of tees, and use my 4 or 5 iron off the tee since the ball will stay in the short grass which is usually clear.

Oh thats cool! Thanks for the info.

I grew up with only evergreen trees so my recent transition to courses with deciduous trees has caused a few problems with lost balls.  Glad to know there is an exception to this.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

In the fall, courses can put into effect a local "leaf rule" calling the leaves an "abnormal ground condition" by designating it "ground under repair." It's a temporary condition in the fall lasting usually 3 weeks. If it is virtually certain that the ball is lost in the abnormal ground condition one proceeds under Rule 25-b. Courses with a lot of deciduous trees that don't do this are simply being mean and lose my business during leaf time. Also I move up a set of tees, and use my 4 or 5 iron off the tee since the ball will stay in the short grass which is usually clear.

 

33-8/31 - Local Rule Providing Relief from Accumulations of Leaves Through the Green

The Committee may make a temporary Local Rule declaring accumulations of leaves through the green at certain holes to be ground under repair (see Definition of "Ground Under Repair") and Rule 25-1 will apply.

The Local Rule should be restricted to the hole(s) at which trouble with leaves occurs and it should be withdrawn as soon as conditions permit. Particular attention is drawn to the opening paragraph of Rule 25-1c; unless it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the leaves, it must be treated as lost elsewhere and Rule 27-1 applies.

For fallen leaves in a bunker - see Decision 13-4/33.

[Martyn W]

22 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

I'd suggest that if you're sufficiently off line to be on the wrong putting green then you don't deserve breaks from the rules!

A wrong putting green could be inches from the putting green if the committee has defined a margin between greens on a double green:

25-3/1

 

Status of Double Green Serving Hole Not Being Played

Q.One half of a U-shaped putting green serves as the 11th green and the other half serves as the 17th green. In play of the 17th hole, if a ball comes to rest on the part of the green serving the 11th hole, does Rule 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green) apply?

A.No, not unless the Committee divides the green by use of stakes or a line and declares one part to be the green of the 11th hole and the other part to be the green of the 17th hole. The Definition of "Putting Green" gives a Committee this right.

[curitiba]

Ill start with a simple one and let you ladies discuss.

 

Rule 17: The Flagstick:   I would like to see this rule changed. If I want to leave it in while making a stroke on the putting green and I hit it, so be it.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2016 by curitiba

[curitiba]

Another one I would like to see go away is the Loose Impediments in a Bunker:

The other day I tried to go through a tree over a bunker. My ball clipped the branch and came down in the bunker. My ball came to rest beside the pine cone that fell at the same time. 

The difficulty of a bunker is THE BUNKER,  not the banana or leaf or branch that fell in it.  ( I do realize its considered a hazard, but lets change the wording on this )

[iacas]

1 hour ago, curitiba said:

Rule 17: The Flagstick:   I would like to see this rule changed. If I want to leave it in while making a stroke on the putting green and I hit it, so be it.

Why? It offers an advantage that they clearly feel (since, what, 1968?) that the player should not get.

Provide a little justification. What's your reasoning?

[curitiba]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

Why? It offers an advantage that they clearly feel (since, what, 1968?) that the player should not get.

Provide a little justification. What's your reasoning?

 

If the idea is to reduce the rules and simplify, wouldnt taking this rule out make golf easier to understand.  Also, I will go opposite your question.  If one can leave the pin in, Wouldnt the advantage be equal for everyone?

Finally, lets say the pin is tucked left side back and I hit right side short and so does my playing partner.  It would save time and energy rather than walking to the pin to get it out and walking back to make my stroke.

From what I understand, the R&A and USGA want to simplify the rules of golf.  Rumors I hear is that maybe they want to have a max of 20 rules.  Golf is on a downward spiral and making the rules easier to understand is part of the objective of trying to get back the growth of the game.

But you just never know with the R&A and USGA.

 

 

People are afraid of change. Who cares if the pin is left in or pulled out.  On any shot outside the green the player has the option, but on the sacred green, he cannot. 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, curitiba said:

If the idea is to reduce the rules and simplify, wouldnt taking this rule out make golf easier to understand.  Also, I will go opposite your question.  If one can leave the pin in, Wouldnt the advantage be equal for everyone?

The advantage would be equal, yes, but so too is the disadvantage right now.

And I don't know of many people who have trouble understanding that they have to take the flagstick out when they get to the green.

4 minutes ago, curitiba said:

Finally, lets say the pin is tucked left side back and I hit right side short and so does my playing partner.  It would save time and energy rather than walking to the pin to get it out and walking back to make my stroke.

It would, but if neither of you are going to make it, just putt up to the flag and pull it out then. And the time saved is pretty minimal.

[curitiba]

I am only participating in this forum cuz I really believe the R&A and USGA want to simplify the rules of golf. 

The ideas I will give in the next few days are pretty basic stuff that happen on a frequent basis and dont affect the integrity of the game.

 

Looking forward to discuss this stuff in the near future. Goodnight.

Edited March 31, 2016 by curitiba

[Wansteadimp]

On 3/30/2016 at 0:52 AM, iacas said:

Why? It offers an advantage that they clearly feel (since, what, 1968?) that the player should not get.

Provide a little justification. What's your reasoning?

This is something I have thought about and fallen foul of, thankfully in a friendly match not a comp.

You ask your playing companion/opponent to tend the flag, you get a putt on line, they fail to take the pin out, you get the penalty. It doesn't seem fair, in my case it was because my playing companion was a space cadet, but in a singles matchplay it could be your opponent pulling a fast one on you.

On the opposite side, you have had the advantage (maybe?) of hitting the pin so you should take the penalty and I don't really have a satisfactory alternative, I wouldn't want to go back to leaving the pin in.

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

.....in singles matchplay it could be your opponent pulling a fast one on you.

If your opponent intentionally does not remove the flag, the decisions indicate that he either loses the hole (if his intention is to influence the movement of the putt) or is disqualified (if his intention is to cause you to incur a penalty).  If its accidental, you lose the hole.  I'm not sure exactly how you determine his intention, but that's the rule.

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

If your opponent intentionally does not remove the flag, the decisions indicate that he either loses the hole (if his intention is to influence the movement of the putt) or is disqualified (if his intention is to cause you to incur a penalty).  If its accidental, you lose the hole.  I'm not sure exactly how you determine his intention, but that's the rule.

I expect that most golfers have the integrity for this not to be an issue, but IMO this is an oversight of rulesmakers who tend to have caddies all the time to take care of the flag.

IMO in match play failure of the opponent or opponent's caddie to remove the flag in time should be loss of hole on them just to guard against a hyper-competitive person willing to lie about their intentions to a rules official.

Edited April 6, 2016 by natureboy

[Fourputt]

 

4 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

This is something I have thought about and fallen foul of, thankfully in a friendly match not a comp.

You ask your playing companion/opponent to tend the flag, you get a putt on line, they fail to take the pin out, you get the penalty. It doesn't seem fair, in my case it was because my playing companion was a space cadet, but in a singles matchplay it could be your opponent pulling a fast one on you.

On the opposite side, you have had the advantage (maybe?) of hitting the pin so you should take the penalty and I don't really have a satisfactory alternative, I wouldn't want to go back to leaving the pin in.

 

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

If your opponent intentionally does not remove the flag, the decisions indicate that he either loses the hole (if his intention is to influence the movement of the putt) or is disqualified (if his intention is to cause you to incur a penalty).  If its accidental, you lose the hole.  I'm not sure exactly how you determine his intention, but that's the rule.

If I was playing against a jerk like that (thankfully I've never been in that situation), I'd simply have the flagstick removed.  

[DaveP043]

41 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

If I was playing against a jerk like that (thankfully I've never been in that situation), I'd simply have the flagstick removed.  

I'm with you, if I get to the point where I know my opponent can't be trusted, I'd make sure not to let him tend the flag for me.  I was actually in a fourball match over the weekend where my opponent had a tough time getting the flag out, and felt really bad about it.   I know I'd be out of the hole if my ball had hit it, but based on the friendly way we played the match, it wouldn't have surprised me if they'd have conceded the hole to my partner.  Just a good reminder to make sure you can get the flag out BEFORE anyone actually hits a putt, you don't want to accidentally cause your opponent to lose a hole. 

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm with you, if I get to the point where I know my opponent can't be trusted, I'd make sure not to let him tend the flag for me.  I was actually in a fourball match over the weekend where my opponent had a tough time getting the flag out, and felt really bad about it.   I know I'd be out of the hole if my ball had hit it, but based on the friendly way we played the match, it wouldn't have surprised me if they'd have conceded the hole to my partner.  Just a good reminder to make sure you can get the flag out BEFORE anyone actually hits a putt, you don't want to accidentally cause your opponent to lose a hole. 

When I tend the flagstick I remove it and rest it on the bottom of the insert, leaning it away from the player, but not touching or damaging the rim of the hole.  That way there is never a chance that it will get stuck because of some grit in the socket.

[Rulesman]

Some years ago in the Ryder Cup (I think) Faldo had a long put. His caddie, Fanny Sunesson, couldn't get the flagstick out and had to tug with two hands. She just got it out as the ball slipped past the hole.