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The R&A Resists Embedded Ball Through the Green


iacas
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On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 7:52 PM, iacas said:

How often do you have stones in dangerous situations in a bunker? Cuz I don't remember the last time I saw a stone in a bunker. I imagine it's easily another of those "minority" situations.

FWIW, we actually have this condition right now.

Depends how you define "stone" maybe, but there are two bunkers on my course which have small stones in them, usually sandstone, often jagged, ranging from 1/4" in size up to maybe 2". It's not ALL stones, of course, it's an ordinary sand bunker, just with an unusual amount of stone in it.

They are sort of dangerous, in that they can make the ball fly in unexpected directions, or could I guess be hit themselves and hit another person. But practically speaking, I've never seen either of these things happen.

They are doing construction with lots of digging on the course on a hill above where these bunkers are, and I think the stones just washed down the slope into the bunker. It's really a maintenance issue and they should just rake them out (which they probably will when the season starts). I guess you could have a situation on a course where this would be an ongoing problem....a bunker in the drainage path of ground where there are small stones. 

I wouldn't mind a rule allowing golfers to remove loose impediments in a bunker.

Edited by Big Lex

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1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

The assumption is that they must have been insistent, since had they not been, the USGA should have gotten their wish to change the rule.  I can't imagine any other scenario.  I know from my own meager investigation and from what Erik has stated that the USGA wants that change.  If the R&A didn't block it, then why hasn't it been done?

Perhaps it was simple persuasion and evidence from the rest of the world outside the USGA's ken.

Some nations are famed for diplomacy others for heavy artillery ;-)

 

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1 minute ago, Rulesman said:

Perhaps it was simple persuasion and evidence from the rest of the world outside the USGA's ken.

Some nations are famed for diplomacy others for heavy artillery ;-)

It was not, by all indications I've had. The R&A simply wouldn't budge.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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25 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I guess you could have a situation on a course where this would be an ongoing problem....a bunker in the drainage path of ground where there are small stones. 

I wouldn't mind a rule allowing golfers to remove loose impediments in a bunker.

Generally the problem is with the source of the sand, natural or unrefined from quarries. Bunkers in the US are usually an object of jealousy for UK visitors.

Did you mean loose impediments in general or just stones?

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1 minute ago, Rulesman said:

Generally the problem is with the source of the sand, natural or unrefined from quarries. Bunkers in the US are usually an object of jealousy for UK visitors.

Did you mean loose impediments in general or just stones?

Ah that makes sense. I can see where that would be maddening.

I meant loose impediments in general....twigs, leaves, sometimes bits of paper or whatever....and stones.

At one time the rule was that you could move "unnatural" things in a bunker such as a paper cup, but not anything natural like leaves. Is that still the rule?

I suppose there is an issue with people "grooming" bunkers. So there would have to be perhaps a definition of the size of stone that can be moved.....which would be complicated.....which is probably why it's prohibited. Would we start carrying rulers into the bunker? :-) 

JP Bouffard

"I cut a little driver in there." -- Jim Murray

Driver: Titleist 915 D3, ACCRA Shaft 9.5*.
3W: Callaway XR,
3,4 Hybrid: Taylor Made RBZ Rescue Tour, Oban shaft.
Irons: 5-GW: Mizuno JPX800, Aerotech Steelfiber 95 shafts, S flex.
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1 minute ago, Big Lex said:

 

At one time the rule was that you could move "unnatural" things in a bunker such as a paper cup, but not anything natural like leaves. Is that still the rule?

 

Those 'unnatural things' (artificial or man made) are Movable Obstructions and yes the rule is still there.

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Let’s look at some facts regarding this thread:

  •            It’s three months since a new Rules code came into effect and there was no change to the status of Rule 25-2 and the local Rule for embedded ball, indicating that the ruling bodies agreed on the status quo.

  •            The normal cycle for Rules code changes would suggest that the next code would become effective January 1, 2020.  The ruling bodies may have signaled that this cycle might not be normal when they only said on the front of the Rule book “Effective January 2016” whereas the previous book said “2012-2015.”

In a normal cycle, the USGA Rules Committee, the R&A Rules Committee and the Joint Rules Committee will be considering/discussing potential Rules changes for the next three years – adopting some, discarding some.  I am confident that these Committees have one common interest and goal – that any change must be made for the betterment of the game.  (if someone doesn’t share that goal, they shouldn’t be on the Committee.)

Given that the Rules already provide the authority to local Committees to implement the local Rule for an embedded ball through the green, how will this speculated change from local Rule to Rule make the game better?

The originator of this thread wrote that someone reportedly involved told him that the USGA “wanted” the situation changed.  It didn’t happen, and there is no other factual information available, only conjecture.

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1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

Generally the problem is with the source of the sand, natural or unrefined from quarries. Bunkers in the US are usually an object of jealousy for UK visitors.

Did you mean loose impediments in general or just stones?

We have a few course here in the Boston area that have sand similar to what you are describing. But the stones are no larger than a centimeter in diameter. After I hit my shot, I will pick them up and toss them out for the next guy.

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38 minutes ago, rogolf said:
  • It’s three months since a new Rules code came into effect and there was no change to the status of Rule 25-2 and the local Rule for embedded ball, indicating that the ruling bodies agreed on the status quo.

No, it doesn't indicate that they agreed on the way the Rule should be, but only that one side was unable to convince the other stubborn side that they should change it.

38 minutes ago, rogolf said:
  • The normal cycle for Rules code changes would suggest that the next code would become effective January 1, 2020.  The ruling bodies may have signaled that this cycle might not be normal when they only said on the front of the Rule book “Effective January 2016” whereas the previous book said “2012-2015.”

Maybe, but I wouldn't read too much into that.

38 minutes ago, rogolf said:

In a normal cycle, the USGA Rules Committee, the R&A Rules Committee and the Joint Rules Committee will be considering/discussing potential Rules changes for the next three years – adopting some, discarding some.  I am confident that these Committees have one common interest and goal – that any change must be made for the betterment of the game.  (if someone doesn’t share that goal, they shouldn’t be on the Committee.)

You can have the same goal but disagree on how you get there.

38 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Given that the Rules already provide the authority to local Committees to implement the local Rule for an embedded ball through the green, how will this speculated change from local Rule to Rule make the game better?

By making a LR used by some vast majority of people to simply be THE "rule" and not requiring it to be a "local rule" stated and declared. After all, why not making the ability to lift your ball on the putting green a local rule? Because they felt it was frequent and common enough to make it a Rule, not a Local Rule.

Relief for an embedded ball through the green is the way the USGA, from what I've been told, feels should be "the Rule."

38 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The originator of this thread wrote that someone reportedly involved told him that the USGA “wanted” the situation changed.  It didn’t happen, and there is no other factual information available, only conjecture.

The only conjecture is you pretending to know the number and names and positions of people with whom I've talked. And the guy (now plural, but originally) is very much in a position to know.

The majority of those in a position to make and change the Rules of Golf at the USGA thinks the Rules of Golf should allow for relief for an embedded ball through the green without requiring a Local Rule to be in place.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, it doesn't indicate that they agreed on the way the Rule should be, but only that one side was unable to convince the other stubborn side that they should change it.

Why use the word stubborn here. Are the USGA stubborn in not agreeing to the 'stones' being a Rule

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Just now, Rulesman said:

Why use the word stubborn here. Are the USGA stubborn in not agreeing to the 'stones' being a Rule

Sure, why not?

The difference likely being that we see instances of stones in bunkers far less commonly than we see competitions and courses make use of the embedded ball through the green LR.

The latter happens, I would guess, far more frequently.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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6 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

By making a LR used by some vast majority of people to simply be THE "rule" and not requiring it to be a "local rule" stated and declared. After all, why not making the ability to lift your ball on the putting green a local rule? Because they felt it was frequent and common enough to make it a Rule, not a Local Rule.

 

 

How do you know there is some 'vast majority' ?

Majority of rules makers, officials, tour organisers, competition committees, players?

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11 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Why use the word stubborn here. Are the USGA stubborn in not agreeing to the 'stones' being a Rule

The difficulty you have with the "stones in bunkers" rule is what is considered a "stone" and what is just a natural component of that particular grade of coarse sand?  How large does a stone have to be to be considered a "stone" under the rule?  It would be difficult to define, and the equally difficult to evaluate on the course.  

It seems easier and more reasonable to confine such awkwardness to a local rule so that it only has to be dealt with in case of actual necessity.  That doesn't apply for the embedded ball.  A ball is either embedded or it isn't, black and white, with no gray area.  Easy to apply and confirm.

Rick

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10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Sure, why not?

The difference likely being that we see instances of stones in bunkers far less commonly than we see competitions and courses make use of the embedded ball through the green LR.

The latter happens, I would guess, far more frequently.

When you say we do you mean people in the US?

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Without talking to all parties involved, I'd never get into this argument in the first place.  

For some perspective however, here's an interesting article on conceded putts.  In the early 1900's, I'm sure golfers in Europe thought the Americans were being unreasonable.

http://www.usga.org/articles/2015/05/conceding-putts--a-history.html

 

Regards,

John

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2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

How do you know there is some 'vast majority' ?

Majority of rules makers, officials, tour organisers, competition committees, players?

I'm not saying that I know it. I'm saying it seems quite likely true. Virtually every competition in which I've played - or heard about in regards to this rule - employs the Local Rule. Including the PGA Tour and European Tour on their hard cards.

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

The difficulty you have with the "stones in bunkers" rule is what is considered a "stone" and what is just a natural component of that particular grade of coarse sand?  How large does a stone have to be to be considered a "stone" under the rule?  It would be difficult to define, and the equally difficult to evaluate on the course.  

It seems easier and more reasonable to confine such awkwardness to a local rule so that it only has to be dealt with in case of actual necessity.  That doesn't apply for the embedded ball.  A ball is either embedded or it isn't, black and white, with no gray area.  Easy to apply and confirm.

Also true.

2 hours ago, Rulesman said:

When you say we do you mean people in the US?

No, I mean people who are involved with golf.

I feel a far more compelling case can be made to switch the R and the LR for embedded balls than for stones in a bunker.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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52 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not saying that I know it. I'm saying it seems quite likely true. Virtually every competition in which I've played - or heard about in regards to this rule - employs the Local Rule. Including the PGA Tour and European Tour on their hard cards.

Also true.

No, I mean people who are involved with golf.

I feel a far more compelling case can be made to switch the R and the LR for embedded balls than for stones in a bunker.

So really just your opinions.

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9 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

So really just your opinions.

No. Some of those things are facts. Do the vast majority of tours implement the Local Rule? Did the R&A behave stubbornly in refusing to allow the LR to become the rule re: embedded balls? Do far fewer bunkers have stone safety issues than otherwise? They're facts. I suspect I have them right, but that doesn't mean you get to dismiss it as "just your opinion."

But even if it were just my opinion, that's almost the entire point of a discussion forum.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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