Throwback question is today's low spin equipment making it to easy for Tour players?

[Mike Boatright]

3 hours ago, Pretzel said:

This: The person who hits it 260 with the modern equipment has absolutely no hope if they roll back equipment without also changing every single course in the nation to match the equipment. 

The long bombers of today would be 300 yarders and the current 300+ yard hitters would hit it 275 or so just like the 90's when golf was golf and the second shot counted with positioning and working the ball to tight pins. Today players are starting to hit the ball 350 yards very often making courses a pitch and putt that's boring and not golf!

2 hours ago, InTheRough said:

Golf fans are ridiculous.  We talk and talk about how modern players are all dedicated to practicing, fitness, and strength and how the top golfers in the world are now true athletes, and then we act all surprised when they are able to hit the ball further then the players who would smoke a cigarette while walking down the first fairway.  Could you imagine if Football fans started complaining that they needed to make the balls heavier and lengthen the field because quarterbacks can throw too far and kickers are making field goals from too far away.

Every sport advances.  That's why we see records broken every year in just about every sport.

No I totally disagree with fitness being a prime factor and more athletes as golfers you would see longer hitters more often with rolled back equipment, but not 360 yards and chip it in. Greg Norman was a true athlete back in the 80's he swung it very hard and would hit the ball 350 yards today but with persimmons he would carry it 280 and got 15 yards of roll. Vs the average 260 to 275 yard guy it was still golf he wasn't driving greens and his advantage came on the par 5's. 

 

 

[Pretzel]

9 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

The long bombers of today would be 300 yarders and the current 300+ yard hitters would hit it 275 or so just like the 90's when golf was golf and the second shot counted with positioning and working the ball to tight pins. Today players are starting to hit the ball 350 yards very often making courses a pitch and putt that's boring and not golf!

They don't hit the ball 350 yards "very often", so I'm going to call that statement out as just plain stupid. 350 yard drives only happen when the teebox is elevated and there's at least a small tailwind, not under normal circumstances by any means.

If the modern players all hit the ball 275 yards golf would be much more boring. Do you remember watching the U.S. Open at Pinehurst, where everyone had a long iron into every single green and the whole tournament was a snooze-fest? That's what would happen if you suddenly tried to take 20-30 yards from everyone at once without changing every golf course they play. To change every golf course they play you're asking for every course to go out and create new tee boxes for the tournaments, which just won't happen.

Regardless of how interesting you think it would be, it would never (and, in my opinion, should never) happen for a large number of logistical reasons.

[Mike Boatright]

1 minute ago, Pretzel said:

They don't hit the ball 350 yards "very often", so I'm going to call that statement out as just plain stupid. 350 yard drives only happen when the teebox is elevated and there's at least a small tailwind, not under normal circumstances by any means.

If the modern players all hit the ball 275 yards golf would be much more boring. Do you remember watching the U.S. Open at Pinehurst, where everyone had a long iron into every single green and the whole tournament was a snooze-fest? That's what would happen if you suddenly tried to take 20-30 yards from everyone at once without changing every golf course they play. To change every golf course they play you're asking for every course to go out and create new tee boxes for the tournaments, which just won't happen.

Regardless of how interesting you think it would be, it would never (and, in my opinion, should never) happen for a large number of logistical reasons.

Well no they just play from the old tees like going from the tips to the blues at your home course. If the average shot was 144 to 177 yards in give or take a short par 4 then it creates challenge. A downhill downwind hole would still be a bomb but with a low spin driver and a graphite shaft made for lower spin you get 400 yard drives. Yes you can always just make the courses longer and longer and equipment companies will just keep making the balls longer and drivers faster. so whats next 550 yard par 4's 260 yard par 3's and 700 yard par 5's. 

[SavvySwede]

23 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

The long bombers of today would be 300 yarders and the current 300+ yard hitters would hit it 275 or so just like the 90's when golf was golf and the second shot counted with positioning and working the ball to tight pins. Today players are starting to hit the ball 350 yards very often making courses a pitch and putt that's boring and not golf!

Tour average is 290. If you think 350 is common you don't know how averages work. As @Pretzel stated, course conditions are a big factor. Jeff Sluman hit the longest drive of 2003 which went 473yards but he still only averaged 280.6 for the season.

 

4 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Well no they just play from the old tees like going from the tips to the blues at your home course. If the average shot was 144 to 177 yards in give or take a short par 4 then it creates challenge. A downhill downwind hole would still be a bomb but with a low spin driver and a graphite shaft made for lower spin you get 400 yard drives. Yes you can always just make the courses longer and longer and equipment companies will just keep making the balls longer and drivers faster. so whats next 550 yard par 4's 260 yard par 3's and 700 yard par 5's. 

What's the point in reducing the distance and then moving up the old tees? You would end up with the exact same length/difficulty of approach. Pointless

[Mike Boatright]

Here is another interesting tid bit of how current tech might be making the game to easy.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/golf/pga/2007-07-12-oldclubs_N.htm

 

[Pretzel]

8 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Well no they just play from the old tees like going from the tips to the blues at your home course. If the average shot was 144 to 177 yards in give or take a short par 4 then it creates challenge. 

So you're saying that you would have them play shorter tees so that they have the same distance for their approach shot? How would it make any difference how long the tee shot was then if they have the same club in their hand for approach shots.

8 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

A downhill downwind hole would still be a bomb but with a low spin driver and a graphite shaft made for lower spin you get 400 yard drives.

I have hit a drive of 396 yards once in my life. There have currently been 4 drives of over 400 yards this year on the PGA Tour. There have been 14 holes in one on the PGA Tour so far this year. If it happens less frequently than a hole-in-one (and by nearly a factor of 4), it's NOT an issue in the slightest. Also, Davis Love III Hit a 476 yard drive in 2004, before a large majority of this technology you're complaining about became common.

8 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Yes you can always just make the courses longer and longer and equipment companies will just keep making the balls longer and drivers faster. so whats next 550 yard par 4's 260 yard par 3's and 700 yard par 5's. 

You're being absurd here and you know it. Both you and I know that holes won't be that long. Course designers have, and will continue to do so, made it so that there is a designated landing area for tee shots that prevents short courses from being irrelevant. Marion was a very good example of how a short course can render long bombers irrelevant if they don't play the course correctly.

1 minute ago, Mike Boatright said:

Here is another interesting tid bit of how current tech might be making the game to easy.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/golf/pga/2007-07-12-oldclubs_N.htm

This is an article from 2007 before Brandt Snedeker was the same player he is today. He also was playing on a MODERN course with older clubs. The modern course is harder, and Snedeker had NEVER played with these clubs before (big thing, getting used to a set of clubs). Of course he's going to play poorly when he's never used the clubs before and he plays with old clubs on a course designed to challenge the golfer of the modern era.

[Mike Boatright]

1 minute ago, Pretzel said:

So you're saying that you would have them play shorter tees so that they have the same distance for their approach shot? How would it make any difference how long the tee shot was then if they have the same club in their hand for approach shots.

Well yes and no let me explain. With older tech and the current 495 yard par 4's the players would shoot in the high 80's or mid 70's. It would put a premium on fairways leaving players with 133 158 etc.. Today they just hit a hybrid often and juice is straight 277 because hybrids also have low spin.. That's how they are getting 315 yard averages. If they only hit drivers it would be more because they hit it 330 very often and more. A increased spin ball would make it harder and put a premium on skill overall it would make the game a skill game. This is mostly pga tour level not so much at all LPGA or champions tour levels.

[freshmanUTA]

6 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Well yes and no let me explain. With older tech and the current 495 yard par 4's the players would shoot in the high 80's or mid 70's. It would put a premium on fairways leaving players with 133 158 etc.. Today they just hit a hybrid often and juice is straight 277 because hybrids also have low spin.. That's how they are getting 315 yard averages. If they only hit drivers it would be more because they hit it 330 very often and more. A increased spin ball would make it harder and put a premium on skill overall it would make the game a skill game. This is mostly pga tour level not so much at all LPGA or champions tour levels.

Where the hell do you get 315 average? the tour average is around 290 give or take a few yards...

 

EDIT: 290 isn't even the carry average, the carry average is 275. http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/

Edited March 25, 2016 by freshmanUTA

[SavvySwede]

3 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Well yes and no let me explain. With older tech and the current 495 yard par 4's the players would shoot in the high 80's or mid 70's. It would put a premium on fairways leaving players with 133 158 etc.. Today they just hit a hybrid often and juice is straight 277 because hybrids also have low spin.. That's how they are getting 315 yard averages. If they only hit drivers it would be more because they hit it 330 very often and more. A increased spin ball would make it harder and put a premium on skill overall it would make the game a skill game. This is mostly pga tour level not so much at all LPGA or champions tour levels.

Your "math" is wrong and you keep changing your stories every time it's shown to be wrong. Give it up.

[Pretzel]

11 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Today they just hit a hybrid often and juice is straight 277 because hybrids also have low spin.. That's how they are getting 315 yard averages. If they only hit drivers it would be more because they hit it 330 very often and more.

I don't think you understand at all how far the players hit it. The driving distances that are measured for the average are usually only on par 5's where the players have an incentive to hit driver. They aren't hitting hybrids on these holes, and the average wouldn't jump up to 330 if they hit a driver on every hole. The tour average wouldn't even break 300 if they were all required to hit driver on the holes where the distance is measured, because on holes where they measure the distance they already DO hit their drivers.

11 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

It would put a premium on fairways leaving players with 133 158 etc.

No, it would put an even greater premium on distance. If I'm being totally honest, I would be willing to bet money that many tour players don't care all that much if they hit the rough on your everyday tour course (I've seen the rough at the normal courses, it's no worse than the stuff you face on the weekend) that isn't hosting the U.S. Open, provided they still have an angle to the green. It's nearly always better to be 15-20 yards closer and in the rough than it is to be 15-20 yards further and in the fairways. This is a statement backed by hard science, and I would recommend you pick up a copy of Lowest Score Wins if you want to review the validity of it.

11 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

Well yes and no let me explain. With older tech and the current 495 yard par 4's the players would shoot in the high 80's or mid 70's. 

Pardon me, but who in their right mind wants to actually watch that? That's boring as hell if you watch the best of the best shooting well above par week in and week out. They also wouldn't be shooting those numbers even under those conditions, but that's besides the point. Why do you want to watch them shoot in the mid 70's to the 80's all the time? Do you just want to feel better about your golf game because those are similar numbers to what you shoot? 

11 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

A increased spin ball would make it harder and put a premium on skill overall it would make the game a skill game. This is mostly pga tour level not so much at all LPGA or champions tour levels.

It wouldn't put a premium on skill. In what way do you think it would put a premium on skill? Every golfer on the PGA tour curves the ball, and with an increased spin ball it would just curve slightly more. To compensate, they just aim slightly further left or right to accommodate for this change. Your claim here is preposterous and completely based upon opinion of how you want to see, not facts about what the actual effects would be of such a change.

[Mike Boatright]

I say we test more tour players see what happens.

[Pretzel]

45 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

I say we test more tour players see what happens.

I say you're one of the very, very few people who actually thinks this would be a good idea and the PGA tour won't test more tour players because they know that it isn't what the vast majority of their customer base wants to see. People like to see the big drives followed by the short approaches and low scores, which are offset by the big drives that go wild and lead to big scores. They don't like to watch people scramble to try an just make par on every single hole. 

[Lihu]

 

 

20 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

When it comes to shot shaping and hitting irons shots today's pro's have proven that they have talent and essentially play with the same clubs as 80 years ago. The driver and 3 woods are the real issue 370 yard drives down wind and consistently getting 30 yards plus roll on firm fairways with 340 yard bombs. It sets up a lot of easy birdies for the majority of pro's and the long players like day just make it a pitch and putt. I was watching the world match play today and it was a 135 yard par 3 into a cross wind! This hole was fun to watch the guys struggled with it a lot and was an actual golf hole. There is no reason golf can't be like that on 15 out of 18 holes were talking 412 yard holes set up to be hard that maximizes skill vs bomb it and clip it close. There are no grooves on drivers the players are hitting it to far and it needs to be rolled back to 1992 specs. The drivers should have a spin limit and cc limit grooves required and the ball should be set back as well. 300 yards should be long again and a 260 player can compete just like when golf was golf not whatever the game these guys are playing which is akin to a home run derby. As far as the rest of equipment can stay the same game improvement irons are fine and amateur's can play with a 460 cc ping g30 if they wan't but a serious player will want to play with balata type pro  v 1 balls and persimmon size 200 cc head with grooves non titanium. I have no problem losing 20 yards If I know im actually testing my game vs how many fairways I hit with my gorilla driver.

If the pros are limited to from almost 300 yards down to 260 yards by some dumbing down technology, you would likely lose 50 yards and not 20 as you hope.it would put you even farther away from the pros than now.

[Mike Boatright]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

 

If the pros are limited to from almost 300 yards down to 260 yards by some dumbing down technology, you would likely lose 50 yards and not 20 as you hope.it would put you even farther away from the pros than now.

I hit it about 260 to 270 with my Titelist persimmon. Id be an average tour pro If i could shoot under par.

[Mike Boatright]

1 hour ago, Pretzel said:

Pardon me, but who in their right mind wants to actually watch that? That's boring as hell if you watch the best of the best shooting well above par week in and week out. They also wouldn't be shooting those numbers even under those conditions, but that's besides the point. Why do you want to watch them shoot in the mid 70's to the 80's all the time? Do you just want to feel better about your golf game because those are similar numbers to what you shoot?

No your confused with older tech and the current tees they might shoot those numbers. With shorter courses and older tech these guys would post 72-68-70-70 often winning score on tournaments would be like 6-9 under.

[Pretzel]

35 minutes ago, Mike Boatright said:

No your confused with older tech and the current tees they might shoot those numbers. With shorter courses and older tech these guys would post 72-68-70-70 often winning score on tournaments would be like 6-9 under.

Again, this begs the question of what difference you expect it to honestly make if the scores end up about the same. Do you really think the courses want to go and make all new tee boxes to accommodate this, for a net change of 0?

It would only add confusion and unnecessary complication to the game. The one set of rules we have is plenty convoluted on its own, without providing additional equipment restrictions for pros versus amateurs. 

You'd also kill the golfing economy if you required it for all players. You would essentially stifle all innovation and cause a severe drop in people who are willing to try out the game or purchase new equipment that's absolute junk compared to what they have now. Not to mention that the TV broadcast would either be identical to how it is now or even more boring for the masses as they watch the pros seemingly struggle. All in all, it's a recipe for disaster for golf as a whole either way you go about it. 

[Mike Boatright]

44 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Again, this begs the question of what difference you expect it to honestly make if the scores end up about the same. Do you really think the courses want to go and make all new tee boxes to accommodate this, for a net change of 0?

It would only add confusion and unnecessary complication to the game. The one set of rules we have is plenty convoluted on its own, without providing additional equipment restrictions for pros versus amateurs. 

You'd also kill the golfing economy if you required it for all players. You would essentially stifle all innovation and cause a severe drop in people who are willing to try out the game or purchase new equipment that's absolute junk compared to what they have now. Not to mention that the TV broadcast would either be identical to how it is now or even more boring for the masses as they watch the pros seemingly struggle. All in all, it's a recipe for disaster for golf as a whole either way you go about it. 

Well yeah dude i'm a golf purist I know it's not going to happen but who knows subtle changes do occur right? We have the anchor ban then the groove rule who knows? Anyway the tees are already there just up 20 yards. I think it would improve the quality of golf with increased spin balls and increased spin drivers. We hear it all the time the balls don't spin anymore and you can't work the ball so maybe that's all they need to do maybe..? Anyway Again just my vision thanks for your feedback though I think im done with this one :)

Edited March 25, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[Lihu]

6 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

I hit it about 260 to 270 with my Titelist persimmon. Id be an average tour pro If i could shoot under par.

So, why not use a modern driver and drive 300 yards like everyone else on the tour?

That's the key, shoot to a +4 handicap and anyone can be a tour pro. Easy, right?