Ball blown off green

[Buckeyebowman]

I'm kind of surprised that I haven't seen anything here about this. Doesn't mean it isn't there, just that I haven't found it. It may be buried within the voluminous Masters thread.

On Saturday, a player's ball was blown off the green, on 15 I believe, and into the lake. I only caught bits and pieces of the coverage, but I believe I heard that the player's ball was marked at the time this happened. I also heard that he had to drop on the other side of the green, and wound up making double bogey. I did see a clip of him following the ball down the green as it was being pushed by the wind, several times reaching down as if to pick it up. Then, realizing that touching a ball in motion would be a violation, he let it roll to end up in the lake.

Admittedly I may have it all wrong, but, if that ball was marked, why couldn't he simply place another ball at his mark? If it was not marked, why couldn't the ball be replaced as near as possible to it's original position? A la Louis Ouisthazen's ball hitting his fellow competitor's ball on 16 on Sunday?

[Golfingdad]

It was Billy Horschel, and yes, it was on 15.  I tried to find the answer in the rules but came up partially empty.  I can tell you why it's different than Oosthuizens situation though.  Wind is not considered an "outside agency" whereas an FCs ball is.  That's why Holmes has to replace his ball.

With wind, it's just as if the ball ended up in the lake from his previous shot - doesn't matter that it was resting there for awhile.

The part I can't find an answer for, though, is about the mark.  I'm gonna make a guess here and say that a ball is not out of play just because a coin is sitting next to it.  But again, that's just a guess.

[freshmanUTA]

36 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm gonna make a guess here and say that a ball is not out of play just because a coin is sitting next to it.  But again, that's just a guess.

I think you hit it right on the nose.

[Rulesman]

This is in the Definition.

A ball in play that has been marked but not lifted remains in play. A ball that has been marked, lifted and replaced is back in play whether or not the ball-marker has been removed.

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

The part I can't find an answer for, though, is about the mark.

Too many people look right past the Definitions when they try to find a rules answer.

[Phil McGleno]

Trick: put your ball near your coin, but not in a place where it's considered to have been replaced.-Sometimes the caddie will put a ball behind the coin(he can not necessarily replace it anyway) and then it is not in play again.

Also if the wind blew his ball into or closer to the hole it would have been a good thing.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Trick: put your ball near your coin, but not in a place where it's considered to have been replaced.-Sometimes the caddie will put a ball behind the coin(he can not necessarily replace it anyway) and then it is not in play again.

Also if the wind blew his ball into or closer to the hole it would have been a good thing.

Nice find on that one. Here is the corresponding decision on that one, 

Quote

20-4/2

 

Ball Lifted from Putting Green and Placed by Caddie Behind Marker
 

Q.A player marks the position of his ball on the putting green by placing a coin immediately behind the ball. He lifts the ball and gives it to his caddie to have it cleaned. The caddie then places the ball immediately behind the coin, i.e., not in the ball's original position. Is the ball in play when the caddie places the ball?

A.The answer depends on whether the caddie intended to put the ball into play when he placed it.

If the caddie did not place the ball with the intention of putting it into play (e.g., he positioned the ball to serve as a reference point for reading the line of putt from the other side of the hole), the ball was not in play when so placed. The ball is not considered to be in play until it is positioned with the intention of replacing the ball as required by Rule 16-1b. If the player made a stroke with his ball while it was out of play, he would be playing a wrong ball (Rule 15-3).

If the caddie placed the ball with the intention of putting it into play, the ball is in play. If the player played the ball that was so placed, he would lose the hole in match play and in stroke play would incur a penalty of two strokes for playing from a wrong place (Rules 16-1b and 20-7). In stroke play, there would be no additional penalty for the ball having been replaced by a person not permitted to do so by Rule 20-3a (see Note 3 to Rule 20-7c).

If the caddie had placed the ball on the original spot, the presumption is that he intended to put it into play unless there is strong evidence to the contrary

 

[Golfingdad]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

Too many people look right past the Definitions when they try to find a rules answer.

Ha.  Absolutely.  I checked the Rules and I checked the Decisions.  Thought I was being diligent, yet didn't consider checking the Definitions.

Lesson learned.

[DeadMan]

23 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Ha.  Absolutely.  I checked the Rules and I checked the Decisions.  Thought I was being diligent, yet didn't consider checking the Definitions.

Lesson learned.

If you use the online rules at the USGA site, the words that are in italics are in the definitions, and they are actually hyperlinks to the actual definitions. Same with the USGA rules app. It's really handy.

[jgreen85]

Why is this situation different? Seems arbitrary to me. Horschel was at his ball for more than 10 seconds.

Rule 16-2

Ball Overhanging Lip Falls into Hole

Q.Gina has played two strokes and her ball is lying on the putting green. She plays her third stroke and the ball is overhanging the hole. Before Gina can reach her ball, it falls into the hole. What is Gina`s score for the hole?

A.3. As the ball fell into the hole before 10 seconds after Gina reached the hole had passed, she is considered to have holed out with her third stroke. If Gina had reached the ball, waited 10 seconds, then the ball fell into the hole, Gina`s score for the hole would have been 4.

[Rulesman]

2 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

Why is this situation different? Seems arbitrary to me. Horschel was at his ball for more than 10 seconds.

Rule 16-2

Ball Overhanging Lip Falls into Hole

Q.Gina has played two strokes and her ball is lying on the putting green. She plays her third stroke and the ball is overhanging the hole. Before Gina can reach her ball, it falls into the hole. What is Gina`s score for the hole?

A.3. As the ball fell into the hole before 10 seconds after Gina reached the hole had passed, she is considered to have holed out with her third stroke. If Gina had reached the ball, waited 10 seconds, then the ball fell into the hole, Gina`s score for the hole would have been 4.

This is specifically to deter players from simply standing by an overhanging ball for the rest of the day.

[jgreen85]

8 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

This is specifically to deter players from simply standing by an overhanging ball for the rest of the day.

I know; I don't disagree with that rule, but it's arbitrary considering wind should be an outside agent. Do you agree they're inconsistent? For 16-2 to hold, when that ball started rolling after horschel put it back down, the roll in to the water would've been hit his 4th stroke, right?

Or it would be smart for players with balls hanging on lips, to mark their ball, and set it back down to get an additional 10 seconds.

Edited April 13, 2016 by jgreen85

[Jeremie Boop]

Hmm... a ball blowing off the green? @DaveP043 this sounds familiar

[saevel25]

33 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

I know; I don't disagree with that rule, but it's arbitrary considering wind should be an outside agent. Do you agree they're inconsistent?

Nope

Quote

Neither wind nor water is an outside agency.

 

34 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

For 16-2 to hold, when that ball started rolling after horschel put it back down, the roll in to the water would've been hit his 4th stroke, right?

^^ This doesn't make sense. 

16-2 is for a ball overhanging the lip. It isn't about when the ball is marked or put back in play. 

See this, 

Quote

the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional ten seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest. 

Then see this decision,

Quote

16-2/0.5 Ball Overhanging Hole Is Lifted, Cleaned and Replaced; Ball Then Falls into Hole

Q.After an approach shot, a player's ball is overhanging the hole. The player walks up to the hole without unreasonable delay and notices that there is mud on the ball. The player marks the position of the ball and lifts it. He then cleans the ball and replaces it. The ball remains on the lip of the hole for about five seconds and then, as the player is preparing to tap it into the hole, the ball falls into the hole. What is the ruling?

A.Under Rule 16-2, if a ball falls into the hole after it is deemed to be at rest, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and he shall add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole. In this case, when the player marked the position of the ball it must have been at rest. The ball must be considered to have been at rest when it was replaced; otherwise, it would have to be replaced again (Rule 20-3d).

Accordingly, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke and must add a penalty stroke to his score for the hole.

 

 

[Martyn W]

1 hour ago, jgreen85 said:

but it's arbitrary considering wind should be an outside agent.

If wind was an OA, players may never finish a hole. Under 19-1b:

If a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and replayed.

I must assume that wind would be 'animate' i.e.moving, so if the wind blew a putt offline, the stroke must be cancelled.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Hmm... a ball blowing off the green? @DaveP043 this sounds familiar

LOL, you're right, and that spot on that green is a notoriously precarious spot.  And its the windiest spot on the entire golf course.  Apparently we should have made you chip it from off the green.  I think we did the right thing, in a friendly game on a nasty day.

[jgreen85]

Sorry, I misunderstood "outside agency" - either way, my understanding is consistent with everyone else's: the wind can move your ball and you get no relief from that.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Nope

 

^^ This doesn't make sense. 

16-2 is for a ball overhanging the lip. It isn't about when the ball is marked or put back in play. 

See this, 

Then see this decision,

 

 

So then Horschel should've gotten a penalty stroke when his ball moved after it was supposed to be at rest? oh no b/c it wasn't on the "lip of the cup."

Sounds like your comfortable with the rules of golf making an exception for "lip of the cup." Fine, just acknowledge it is an exception. There are no golf gods buddy; these rules are simply people's opinions. Quoting them doesn't change the fact they are just an opinion. 

How is "lip of the cup" defined btw? And if my ball is not on the "lip of the cup" but just next to the hole on a windy day it's in my best interest to wait a long while? Or do you never get credit for the wind blowing your ball in to the hole? 

 

[saevel25]

17 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

Sorry, I misunderstood "outside agency" - either way, my understanding is consistent with everyone else's: the wind can move your ball and you get no relief from that.

Correct, wind is an outside agency. 

17 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

So then Horschel should've gotten a penalty stroke when his ball moved after it was supposed to be at rest? oh no b/c it wasn't on the "lip of the cup."

Nope. If his ball moved then he has to play it from where it then comes to rest. The problem was it got blown into a water hazard. That gets you a penalty. 

18 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

Sounds like your comfortable with the rules of golf making an exception for "lip of the cup."

There is no exception. Wind moving the ball has nothing to do with a ball on the lip of the cup. They are two entirely different situations. 

Guess what, if Horschel's ball was blown into the hole he would have been considered holed out on his previous stroke, no penalty. 

http://www.pga.com/news/golf-buzz/golf-rules-what-if-wind-blows-your-ball-hole

22 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

Quoting them doesn't change the fact they are just an opinion. 

The rules are the rules for the game. You just can't discard the ones you consider unfair to you. 

23 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

How is "lip of the cup" defined btw? 

Lips it he edge of the hole. 

24 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

 And if my ball is not on the "lip of the cup" but just next to the hole on a windy day it's in my best interest to wait a long while?

Not in a tournament setting where you could be docked for slow play. Unless you are last to hole out you have till it's your turn to make your stroke. Within that time frame if the wind blows the ball into the hole it is considered holed out from the previous stroke, no penalty. 

28 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

Do you never get credit for the wind blowing your ball in to the hole? 

I think you are confusing a ball falling in when on the lip and being blow in by the wind. It doesn't have to be windy for the ball to fall in the hole when on the lip of the cup. Look at Tiger's chip at the masters years ago. It was because it still had some slight momentum and it was on the high side of the hole. It was not windy that day. 

The two situations, wind effecting the ball and a ball being on the lip of the cup are two entirely different situations.