Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
saevel25

Should we change how we define par?

Note: This thread is 1260 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Should we change how we define par?   

56 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we change how we define par?

    • Yes
      1
    • No
      55


54 posts / 3028 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I agree with this, par is a standard across the board, for all skill levels.  There's no reason to change it just to make golf SEEM easier.  I fully support the practice that many higher handicappers use, that of defining a "personal par" for themselves on every hole, I think it offers them a goal that they can meet and occasionally exceed.

I'm curious if anybody actually read the article or just saw Matt's thread title and OP and just started posting away?  He basically says the same thing that you mention above.

Quote

I’ve developed a new chart that gives each player the ability to find their personal par. Instead of being gender-based, it will be based upon how far each player is able to carry their average drive in the air.

And to those that are ranting about the tees, he also says:

Quote

Measuring par on my chart has a host of other potential benefits, as well. Remember the slow-play issue? One of the biggest contributors to that problem has long been players who are playing from the wrong set of tees for their given ability. Extra strokes equal extra time and less fun, so instead of assigning players to tees by handicap or gender, you could assign them to a tee that’s most appropriate for how far they hit the ball. Ideally, more and more clubs would eventually have up to five different sets of tees, but with everyone playing at least from the set that allows them the best opportunity to shoot their personal par, strokes and time off everyone’s round will be cut. This could allow for players of differing ages and genders to compete on a more level playing field, opening up the door for new and different types of events.

I didn't see anywhere in the article where he said courses should change their pars or course ratings should change, or anything like that.  He is simply saying that it might be more fun for people to have a more attainable goal.

Quote

if you at least use the chart I created to establish what your par should be on the course you play from the set of tees you play most often, you can finally aim for a realistic number, and it will be a much better measuring stick by which to gauge your day-to-day rounds. So shoot for your personal par and, in a sense, you will be playing the course (in relation to par, at least) much the same way that the pro or scratch player does every day. And because of that, I think you’ll find how you feel about each and every round is a lot more positive.

In the realm of things that people are trying to do to increase interest in the game, and make it more fun, I feel like this isn't really something to get too bent out of shape about at all, and in fact, it kind of makes sense.  He is basically saying exactly what @DaveP043 said earlier in the thread, and nothing much more than that.

"I fully support the practice that many higher handicappers use, that of defining a "personal par" for themselves on every hole, I think it offers them a goal that they can meet and occasionally exceed. "

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Want to hide this ad? Register for free today!

I kind of do it the other way my goal is not to score worse than what I consider to be a good score on any hole. I don't think bogey is my par just that I am doing okay if that's the way it shakes out. But it's a course management, total score thing. Kind of like trying to do no worse than +1 every 3 holes. My scoring stats figure heavily into my decision making.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I think it is an interesting point of view. Anyone who has ever talked about "bogey golf" has done just what the author described - moved the goalposts a bit to something more readily achievable.

However, I think there is something valuable about par being so difficult to achieve. It becomes a "one-way" benchmark...you measure how close you are (to par for a round, or to scratch), but 99% of golfers never get to or below it. I think that's unique, and worth preserving.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

34 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm curious if anybody actually read the article or just saw Matt's thread title and OP and just started posting away?  He basically says the same thing that you mention above.

And to those that are ranting about the tees, he also says:

I didn't see anywhere in the article where he said courses should change their pars or course ratings should change, or anything like that.  He is simply saying that it might be more fun for people to have a more attainable goal.

In the realm of things that people are trying to do to increase interest in the game, and make it more fun, I feel like this isn't really something to get too bent out of shape about at all, and in fact, it kind of makes sense.  He is basically saying exactly what @DaveP043 said earlier in the thread, and nothing much more than that.

"I fully support the practice that many higher handicappers use, that of defining a "personal par" for themselves on every hole, I think it offers them a goal that they can meet and occasionally exceed. "

We already have names for those - bogey, double bogey, etc.  I don't see any benefit in calling one over par "personal par" on one hole, then two over par is personal par on another hole.  For me, it just confuses the conversation.  

Saying I made my personal par on the 450 yard par 4 12th hole says nothing at all if you don't know what I mean by that.  Saying I made bogey tells everyone that I made a 5 there.  Par becomes a variable instead of a standard.  If I made a bogey, I made a bogey.  I don't attach a negative connotation to that.  Sometimes bogey is a good score.  But by saying I made bogey on #12, everyone knows that I made a 5 there, and if they know me, they know that I played the hole well.

And again, if they were to institute such system, it' would encourage players to play from the wrong tees, because all they have to do is change their personal par.

Joe: "Man what a round!  I shot just 5 over today!"
Sam: "Wow!  What was your score?"
Joe:  "108" 
:~(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

10 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

I think it is an interesting point of view. Anyone who has ever talked about "bogey golf" has done just what the author described - moved the goalposts a bit to something more readily achievable.

However, I think there is something valuable about par being so difficult to achieve. It becomes a "one-way" benchmark...you measure how close you are (to par for a round, or to scratch), but 99% of golfers never get to or below it. I think that's unique, and worth preserving.

 

Maybe but still no reason to redefine par even to call it my personal par. We all do that already don't we? I have score expectations every time I play, it varies course to course, but it's not about par.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

"I fully support the practice that many higher handicappers use, that of defining a "personal par" for themselves on every hole, I think it offers them a goal that they can meet and occasionally exceed. "

Good point on that one. I did overlook that it was more of a personal goal setting. Though, it's not a bad question to ask anyways if par should be different for playing ability. Though the current results of the poll say otherwise.  ;)

I kinda look at things more in strokes gained compared to par.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

22 hours ago, Lihu said:

My home course, or one of them.

http://brooksidegc.com/sites/default/files/brookside-koiner-scorecard.pdf

There are some holes that they lengthened and is not shown. The 485 yard 12th is actually 506 from the tips. The par 5 rating on some of the par 4 are for the ladies ratings, and the overall par for ladies is 75. When I play from the Reds I still play the standard par rating, of course.

So, they already change the par rating for the ladies, although my daughter plays from the standard white tees. She's on a coed team and they are making her play from the standard tees for men. This is why she's playing "bogey" golf.

I'd probably be shooting 100 on that course.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I voted no because it doesn't matter if it's a par 3 or par 45, if I get a 4 on it.  At the end of the day my score would still be the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of the great thing about golf is the variety of courses that we can play.

A big hitter like @saevel25 has plenty of tough courses (and tee boxes) in our hometown that he can choose from. Mercifully, there are also places a Punch-and Judy hitter like me can go and have a chance at par and birdie. You take the course into consideration with the result.

Definitely no need to play around with the words we use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I didn't vote because I'm a little on the fence.  I don't want to just dumb things down just to make them easier.  But here is the reality... at 64 and with partially torn rotator cuff tendons I do well if I can hit 200 yards.  There is not enough hard work that will ever get me long enough.  If anyone wants to talk really hard work we can discuss a few other sports.

I play from forward tees, but on some courses I've played, the differences in tee boxes won't make up for a 50 yard difference in driver and a 20-25 yard difference in irons.  Typically there won't be a 75 yard difference on every driving hole.  That may even translate to a 100 yard difference on par 5's.  There's a lot of talk about tee box placement, but I'm not sure how much effort is made to really figure out the right box placement on a lot of courses.

I still go out and have fun and I'm not complaining, (actually there is less pressure knowing that on some holes a bogey is doing well for me), but the discussion isn't quite as cut and dry as it may appear.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

One of the things that separates golf from other sports is it's history and traditions which seem to be under attack mainly because people don't have the patients or commitment to learn how to play. Golf is just fine as it is w/o changes. It has survived many generations with little change and will continue to do so. 

If anything it needs more marshals to keep the pace going and noise down and deal with people who should not be on the course, like drunks, etc. 

Edited by parman
additional info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/26/2016 at 9:15 AM, MrDC said:

They already have this system in place, for many years, they call them tee boxes, pick one.

If people play the proper tees, this isn't a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 4/26/2016 at 9:52 AM, DaveP043 said:

I agree with this, par is a standard across the board, for all skill levels.  There's no reason to change it just to make golf SEEM easier.  I fully support the practice that many higher handicappers use, that of defining a "personal par" for themselves on every hole, I think it offers them a goal that they can meet and occasionally exceed.  Net par is also there for a player to measure himself by, assuming he's avid enough to want to establish a handicap, official or otherwise.  Some changes just don't need to be made.

As an aside, bogey was the original standard score for a hole.  Par came to be used a bit later, and eventually superseded bogey as the standard score. 

http://www.scottishgolfhistory.org/origin-of-golf-terms/bogey/

This is not surprising, as the Scots have been maneuvering "par" for a while. I've read many an article where American golfers have gone to Scotland to play the links there, and encountering less than clement conditions, have been advised by their caddies that "par" for the day might be 76 or 77, no matter what the scorecard said!

Having played 18 today in no more than 50 degrees, and with a cold wind howling out of the North, I can fully appreciate such a sentiment!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

7 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

.....clement conditions, have been advised by their caddies that "par" for the day might be 76 or 77, no matter what the scorecard said!

They aren't manipulating anything, this is an outgrowth of their handicap system.  For a long time, they've only posted competition scores.  Every score is compared to the "Competition Scratch Score", which is an indication of how hard the course played that specific day. The CSS might be several strokes higher than the Standard Scratch Score, which is somewhat comparable to the USGA's Course Rating.  On a day without a competition, the caddies are probably using their judgement in estimating what the CSS score would be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I feel like the article in the OP is a bit of navel gazing and/or a solution looking for a problem.  The only people that would feel better about personally-adjusted pars are delusional enough to not need personally-adjusted pars to feel good about their game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

My honest opinion based on actual experience is the better player you become the less par becomes relevant. But I think even higher handicaps could adopt that attitude and improve their focus and scores on the course.

Making par irrelevant means putting a single minded purpose/focus on each individual shot as your task, not actually "trying" to make par on a certain hole to keep a round going. For most golfers "Par" is the Holy Grail and their Gold Standard to becoming a good consistent player.  That just adds pressure to the task of stringing good solid golf shots together in a row. Your score is just the by-product of stringing those shots together over the course of a round.

  It's obviously a difficult task to separate score from hitting individual shots. If it was easy we would all be better players. I know for myself the more I put Par or Score on the back burner and just hit the ball, find it and hit it again, the lower I score! It's not that simple as find it and hit it but the point is the focus is on the task in front of you(your next shot) versus the result(your score)! That's nothing new, most of us that played the game for any amount of time has heard this but it definitely applies in shooting your best score your current ability allows.

 

 

You can move up a tee box to make that task physically easier and likely score a little better, but mentally the challenge to make par or better is still there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Under the current system, I try to hit the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes.

Under any new, wacky, hypothesized system (even a weird proposal that seems to have the intent of replacing the handicapping system already in place) - I would change things up a ton ...... and try to hit the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes

short answer - don't much care

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1260 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...