Stubborn Steepness

[iacas]

@DeadPoets, I think you misunderstood.

This topic isn't the GG topic, and we try to keep things pretty much on topic here.

I assure you, we like to talk about swing mechanics, theoretical or otherwise… just in the proper place.

[DeadPoets]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

@DeadPoets, I think you misunderstood.

This topic isn't the GG topic, and we try to keep things pretty much on topic here.

I assure you, we like to talk about swing mechanics, theoretical or otherwise… just in the proper place.

That's fair.

And btw, maybe I misunderstood your response to me earlier.  But were you saying that you've "largely gone away from those moves" (like holding a tray)?  

Or that you've gone away from drills like the one you posted in your YT video in 2016? Because that looks like an awesome drill (unless of course it never translated at full speed).

 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, DeadPoets said:

And btw, maybe I misunderstood your response to me earlier.  But were you saying that you've "largely gone away from those moves" (like holding a tray)?  

Holding a tray is a killer for me, yeah. I'm trying to feel much less right wrist extension. My right wrist gets highly extended when my elbow gets too narrow. I wasn't feeling "holding a tray" in the video you've posted twice now, no.

3 minutes ago, DeadPoets said:

Or that you've gone away from drills like the one you posted in your YT video in 2016? Because that looks like an awesome drill (unless of course it never translated at full speed).

I've gone away from those drills. At any speed, the wrists will not "move" the clubhead like shown in that video.

[Killa]

Coming back to this thread I feel like most of us who struggled with this came from the place where the backswing was nowhere near steep enough. I’m not saying that’s for everyone but a lot of golfers could improve by making their backswing steeper. 

[nevets88]

Josh Park on shallowing:

 

[Killa]

This is a great video bound to help a lot of people out there. I came to a somewhat similar conclusion a while back but this one really is good IMO.

 

[iacas]

Two videos today…

And then one I've filmed for some Evolvr students:

 

[nevets88]

Steepen your body to shallow if you're standing up and steepening. Forces you to shallow. I guess if your arms are going out, this will force your arms to drop behind.

 

[saevel25]

That hand throwing drill breaks my brain a bit, in terms of how awkward it feels, but if you get it right how fricken flush you can hit the ball. For me, since I threw the hands away, all I do is just turn and good things happen. I really do hate it 😛. I think I have always been more of a hitter of the ball. throwing my hands like that is like the complete opposite of what I have been doing. Maybe that is why it feels awkward and is why I know when I do it correctly. 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Steepen your body to shallow if you're standing up and steepening. Forces you to shallow. I guess if your arms are going out, this will force your arms to drop behind.

 

I don't really agree with that video at all.

Many who EE do so because it will tip the shaft back underneath. Many who swing over the top add bend in transition as they throw their hands out over the top.

It's more the opposite of what he said than what he said, IMO. Can someone do the things he says? Yeah, of course. Do most people? No, they do the opposite.

5 hours ago, saevel25 said:

That hand throwing drill breaks my brain a bit, in terms of how awkward it feels, but if you get it right how fricken flush you can hit the ball. For me, since I threw the hands away, all I do is just turn and good things happen. I really do hate it 😛. I think I have always been more of a hitter of the ball. throwing my hands like that is like the complete opposite of what I have been doing. Maybe that is why it feels awkward and is why I know when I do it correctly. 

😄

It's FREAKING WEIRD, I agree.

[tickbomb]

Just joined.  Interesting conversation.  I will add some things that I think have not been addressed in the conversation, or if they were, I apologize.

1.  Shallowness is an end of range activity/goal.  The reason it's good is because you reach the end of your range and can swing consistently from the inside at end of range.  The reason you won't be able to get shallow in a real swing vs a practice swing is because in your real swing you have things you are doing with your elbow, wrists, spine angle etc that are preventing the club from ever getting shallower because you are at the end of range.  So you need to look at it from an end range of motion perspective.  Everyone has different flexibility and end range parameters.  So for some getting to a shallower position will be easier.

2.  You need to have a swing goal of why you want to come from a shallow position to strike the ball.  This is the "merry go round" attack from the inside at an end range of motion.  So instead of practicing the shallowing (which is a move as a result of getting you in a good position to support a "merry go round" attack), you need to practice the shallow strike from P5-P6 from an end range of motion shallow position you want, with the club way behind your back.  This motion is the goal and if you make it the goal, the brain will do what it has to to get to that shallow position.  This is inside to out, rotational etc.  Until you figure out striking from that position, your brain won't see the benefit and it will be subconsciously impossible.  So you also need to practice arm and wrist positions that are really different.  Like left arm away from your body etc.

3.  The actual shallowing of the club will do it itself as a result of centrifugal forces making the club go towards the end of range, given:

-Your arms and wrists are relaxed

-You don't pull down of the club in an opposite direction

-The backswing forces you put on the club at the top of the swing

-etc

4.  The hand throwing drill is interesting.  I think of it more like I'm putting forces on the club to get it back down to my side so I can rotate through the ball.  My mental goal is that the club at the top is in a bad position to support my rotational swing goal.  Here is me fooling around with drills:

Look at the difference between my left arm on the practice swing and the real swing. I will never get the club as shallow as the practice because in my real swing, my left arm is tied to my body.  I'm ok because my end range right now is very close to neutral.

Hope that makes sense.

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, tickbomb said:

1.  Shallowness is an end of range activity/goal.  The reason it's good is because you reach the end of your range and can swing consistently from the inside at end of range. The reason you won't be able to get shallow in a real swing vs a practice swing is because in your real swing you have things you are doing with your elbow, wrists, spine angle etc that are preventing the club from ever getting shallower because you are at the end of range. So you need to look at it from an end range of motion perspective. Everyone has different flexibility and end range parameters.  So for some getting to a shallower position will be easier.

I don't know that I agree with that. Virtually everyone can roll their wrists/forearms in such a way that the club gets ridiculously shallow. It might feel like they're going to hit the ball with the back of the hosel, so they won't do it at any speed while trying to hit a ball, but they can do it, and a good golf swing from this sense is likely nowhere near "end of range of motion."

I can see in your swing why you feel that way, though, and you're talking about it in terms of elbow pitch and some other things.

34 minutes ago, tickbomb said:

2.  You need to have a swing goal of why you want to come from a shallow position to strike the ball.  This is the "merry go round" attack from the inside at an end range of motion.  So instead of practicing the shallowing (which is a move as a result of getting you in a good position to support a "merry go round" attack), you need to practice the shallow strike from P5-P6 from an end range of motion shallow position you want, with the club way behind your back.  This motion is the goal and if you make it the goal, the brain will do what it has to to get to that shallow position.  This is inside to out, rotational etc.  Until you figure out striking from that position, your brain won't see the benefit and it will be subconsciously impossible.  So you also need to practice arm and wrist positions that are really different.  Like left arm away from your body etc.

I feel like I want to mostly agree with this, but I'm not committed to that because I'm not entirely sure we're saying the same things. And I say that particularly about "left arm away from your body" because of your video.

34 minutes ago, tickbomb said:

3.  The actual shallowing of the club will do it itself as a result of centrifugal forces making the club go towards the end of range, given:

No, I don't agree with that, really. There are players who "let" the club get there, and there are definitely players who PUT the club there.

34 minutes ago, tickbomb said:

4.  The hand throwing drill is interesting.  I think of it more like I'm putting forces on the club to get it back down to my side so I can rotate through the ball.  My mental goal is that the club at the top is in a bad position to support my rotational swing goal.  Here is me fooling around with drills:

Look at the difference between my left arm on the practice swing and the real swing. I will never get the club as shallow as the practice because in my real swing, my left arm is tied to my body.  I'm ok because my end range right now is very close to neutral.

First, I'm not entirely sure we're using the same definition of "shallow."

I would say a club that's "shallow" is one where an extension is pointing right of (for a righty) the target line, or "over" or "outside" the target line. Steep being inside. And generally, "shallow" can be over-done, because ultimately you do NOT want the shaft extension pointing outside the ball… you want it pointed directly at the ball (well, the sweet spot, not the actual shaft 😄… so I guess technically you want the shaft pointed about 3/2" inside the ball, ha ha).

Here's the rehearsal, and you're retaining a ton of right elbow flex, really trying to go external (I think this is where you feel your end of range of motion), and really exaggerating a lot of "weird" things (I don't mean weird in a negative way) that don't really happen in a golf swing. Your hands, largely due to the fact that your right elbow is still so bent, have already gotten outside the line where they started, which means that you're either going to swing way outside the ball (as you do here) or you're going to have to pull the hands left FAST which would throw the shaft out over the top somewhere between "a little" and "a shit ton."

In the left frame, your hands are just getting back to the depth they had at setup (green vertical), so it's going to have to "pull back" to gain some depth (green arrow) at this phase.

Because you haven't turned much you're limited in what the elbow can do. It gets stuck a bit behind the shirt seam and I would argue is not really shallow at all, and may in fact be steep as it's pointing inside the ball.

Going "steep to shallow" is one thing, but doing so while the hands stay "out" so far is probably not the way I'd go, because they'll tend to want to roll and suck in late in the backswing.

So here your attempts to shallow end up in a similar way as a lot of people… you early extend, leave your weight back a little (probably tip back a little), and you can see your right elbow is almost straight much too early here.

---

I think steepness is often a result of a few things, sometimes alone, sometimes in combination (unordered):

• The shaft gets too laid off at the top. It has to steepen to hit the ball, and it has almost no time to do it, so it steepens fast.
• The trail elbow gets trapped behind or around the person, so in trying to get back in front, it pushes the handle and ultimately the shaft back in front. If it happens early, the hands have to go left early in the downswing, but it can also just "push" the shaft over due to the split trail/lead hand distance.
• Someone is trying to hit "down" on the ball, or stop hitting it right, so they simply swing left a bunch, which orients the hula hoop of their swing to the left, which is a "steepening" look or move.

I'm not a big fan of "going external" on the downswing, really. I don't think most people can do it, and it often feels limiting, slow, constricted… and creates other issues.

---

I think you'd benefit from turning more, so your arms don't feel they have to go as far around you, and then really just lowering the hands at the proper pace and way. If the elbow never gets too far "around" you, you won't be fighting it getting steep.

[tickbomb]

I agree with my swing faults lol.  I think we are saying the same thing on shallow.  Neutral shallow to me is the club pointing inside the ball where the hozzle will end up.  Is that shallow, well no not really, but it's where I feel end of range. I can do this if I feel like I change my end range of motion and letting the club shallow on it's own:

For me it's about getting to slightly above neutral.  Sometimes i am slightly shallow above the ball.  But crazy above feels, well crazy...

 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, tickbomb said:

I agree with my swing faults lol.  I think we are saying the same thing on shallow.  Neutral shallow to me is the club pointing inside the ball where the hozzle will end up.  Is that shallow, well no not really, but it's where I feel end of range. I can do this if I feel like I change my end range of motion and letting the club shallow on it's own:

I don't love the "end of range of motion" with the trail elbow going (or trying to go) super external stuff you seem to be trying to do. I think you're crowding yourself and I suspect you're not turning quite as much as you can or "should."

You should start a Member Swing topic and just post a video of a regular swing from good angles, FO and down the line.

If you want help, people will help you, or you can just post and use it as a diary of sorts.

[tickbomb]

Thanks might do that.