Stubborn Steepness

[Vinsk]

Hello and welcome to TST. I completely understand your comments. Well, you’ve come to the right place. No gimmicks here. You’ll get some solid, researched and evidence based instruction here. You need to start a ‘My Swing’ thread which there is an entire forum dedicated to this. You’ll get some great advice through that. There is also Evolvr which is an online program offered here which is more personalized and focused for you. For starters here is a good link to browse through:

As far as ‘knowing what is right’ with the golf swing, I recommend you search 5SK (5 Simple Keys). These 5 keys are what every good golfer does. It’s just a fact. How you achieve these keys is your journey. The instruction here is fantastic and you can get great ideas on how to achieve your goals. 

[boogielicious]

@Hugh Jars,

Do you have a Member Swings thread? Also, I use Evolvr for instruction. It is inexpensive and has been very helpful.

[iacas]

Elbow location has a huge effect on forearm angle and wrist conditions.

[dennyjones]

Thanks for fixing the title!  

[JxQx]

7 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

Something Ive realized over the last couple of days is there is something wrong with my wrist hinge. Or grip.

 

 

One thing worth looking at is the location of your right elbow compared to image below. Kevin Na has his elbow much more in front of his chest (arm/elbow pointing more toward the camera/perpendicular to his chest) where was your elbow is flared out a bit (pointing more of a 45 degree angle to the right of your chest/camera).

[iacas]

I'm going to merge this topic with that one.

[JetFan1983]

Hey, guys! I just wanted to bump this thread with a post on how practicing with just one hand on the club can help learn shallowing.

TL;DR: Swinging the club (any club) with just one hand on the grip (either hand) does a lot of great things for your swing. It can help your swing plane, it can help your turning rates, and as a result, it can improve a lot of the overall downswing sequence. 

Brian Creghan, who teaches out of Abacoa down in Jupiter, Florida, shared this information with me a while ago because I have a steep transition and poor turning rates. I'm probably forgetting a lot of it and/or not representing what he said exactly, but I thought this information can be really helpful to a lot of people who are fighting similar issues, so I'm going to do my best to share it here. Keep in mind that all this stuff is actually really simple and old-school despite some of the technical jargon used to describe some things. And this is certainly not fool proof by any means, nor is it a quick fix, but if nothing else, it's a good practice option one can go to to attack a number of flaws in a very simple way. And even if this isn't your priority, it can't really hurt you at all, I think. It might not help, but IMO it can't really hurt you like working on the wrong thing can.

Anyway, let me explain this in as few words as possible:

This was me in March of 2016, I think? It was a while ago. 

The left is a full swing. I believe the result was a massive push fade. Brian then handed me an alignment stick and told me to swing it as fast as I could with just my right hand holding it. He didn't tell me anything else. I did it a few times, swinging as fast as possible, and then he showed me on film what it looked like. To my surprise, the alignment stick had shallowed and I was turned significantly more at A5, A6 and A7 relative to my normal swing. I was pleasantly shocked at how dramatic the difference was.

Then Brian had me swing with only my right hand on my driver (the right picture ^^^) and asked me to hit a full shot. I ended up hitting it terribly, but when I went over to look at the video, the club again had totally shallowed out on its own and my turning rates again were better.

My homework was to incorporate more one handed swings into my practice. And when putting both hands back on the club, I had to feel like the lead hand was just holding on for support. I needed to power the swing from only the right hand in order to still be able to feel what I was feeling with only one hand on the club.

The primordial ooze for shallowing the club in your full swing exists somewhere in one-handed practice. Like I said, this is not a quick fix and this is not particularly easy to translate to your normal swing, but many of the feels required to achieve a shallowing effect in transition and the early downswing can be explored with this kind of practice. 

It has added benefits beyond just shallowing too. As I said, you can see how much more turned I am in the above picture on the right. This can really help feel the increased turning rates one needs to hit the ball with a shallowed downswing plane. I think what can sometimes happen to an amateur golfer is that when they get really steep on the downswing, they end up reducing their turning rates dramatically to compensate. When they learn later on that the shaft has to shallow out, they try to do it, but because the turning rates are so stalled, it has basically no chance of working. Obviously even with great turning rates, this is still really hard to implement but without them, it's almost impossible.

And in addition to better turning rates, one handed swings can help someone increase the outward component with their downswing hand-path if they don't have enough of it. So there are numerous ways how it helps fix the sequence beyond just the plane. 

---

 

Here's a couple clips of some great players using one arm swinging in their practice, for various reasons not necessarily associated with the swing plane, just so there are some more visuals for everyone:

Justin Thomas does this all time on the range too if you've ever watched him practice:

Rory has been doing it on the range all week this week too (with his left hand only) if you've been watching Golf Channel. I wish I had footage of that but he's been doing it in his preshot routine sometimes.

Here's John Daly working on left hand only swings from a bunker. 

 

Daly does this when practicing putting too, where this also can help a lot.

Here's some random Youtube guy encouraging right arm only swings. Hogan fans will enjoy this one:

Here's Chris Como using right arm only swings to teach the basic pitch:

Speaking of Como, the video he made in 2013 with Sasho MacKenzie discusses all the stuff that I'm talking about here. They describe this as the use of "passive torque." I realize I'm getting really technical now, but for some of you, this will remain interesting. With one hand on the club, it will be easier to feel what he's talking about here in regards to the transition:

Here's their opinion on good ways to practice this:

 

I realize this Como-Sasho vid is very technical throughout, but it's useful to watch again if you're into this kind of information because I think it will help explain why one handed swinging can be very beneficial. 

A few ways to practice this:

Get an alignment stick and do overspeed training with either the left or right hand holding it. This is a bit harder to do because the stick is so light that steepening it will be easier to do, but it can really help learning to do this at speed.

Doing it with an actual golf club is much easier to keep on plane because the weight of the clubhead prevents a lot of the tip out from occurring obviously. But hitting some short shots at the range is another useful drill. PS- Don't hurt yourself and try to make use of the passive torques. 

You'll find that when you put both hands on the club again, a lot of this stuff will end up disappearing and you'll revert right back to your old ways. As I said earlier, Creghan had me deaden the other hand completely to try to get some of the feel to translate.

Now, you might find that this simply doesn't work at all with two hands back on the club, no matter what you do. A few things there: like I said before, this isn't a quick fix. And you likely have other priorities you need to work on before shallowing can become possible in your full swing, like turning more or getting your weight forward more or whatever. But I do think that despite all that, one arming some practice swings sometimes can help chip away at winning the war against stubborn steepness. So maybe you won't be able to do today, but five, ten years from now, it could be a different story. 

 

Some final notes: When doing this with the lead hand only, you do want to allow the forearm to supinate. Don't hold it back. You want to feel the least amount of strain on your forearm muscles as possible and rolling it over while maintaining inline impact will do that. Justin Thomas in that clip above does it correctly if you want to see that again. Most of you will just do it naturally though without thinking about it.

Also, I hope this doesn't get conflated with the Golfing Machine concept of hitting vs. swinging because IMO this is not that. I can see how they are somewhat similar, particularly when you put two hands back on the club and then start to feel full swings from just one hand, but IMO this isn't that. This is more about finding different hand pressures against the grip than you're used to, or how for example using only the trail hand on the grip will force stuff like pitch elbow to develop more easily. 

I do admit though that a lot of what I'm talking about here involves feel (or the development of feel) and that words like "tension" are being thrown around, so this stuff is sometimes treading on some shaky ground. I have no idea how this will feel for everyone. Hopefully the concept itself is universal though, even if the way we all feel it varies. 

To conclude all this, I want to reiterate how simple just swinging the club with one hand is, even if I got super technical at times to explain its benefits. It really can help with a lot of the sequence beyond just the plane. Of course, ideally, we're all focusing on our priorities pieces when working on stuff and not necessarily getting sidetracked by fixes we don't need, but even if this isn't our priority, one handed practice can be useful in both the short and long term. 

Chris Como describes how one arm swinging is a lot like taking vitamins:

 Alright I need to watch some playoff football now 

[boogielicious]

Great post @JetFan1983

Below is my try today. Is this the correct way to do it? I fastened a tennis ball to a hybrid shaft when I could only do easy swings last winter. Sorry for the tiny view. I filmed vertical and apparently YouTube doesn’t like that.

I want to make sure I am doing it right. I have a face on too. Turning rates do look better as well as my A6.

 

 

[JetFan1983]

2 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Great post @JetFan1983

Below is my try today. Is this the correct way to do it? I fastened a tennis ball to a hybrid shaft when I could only do easy swings last winter. Sorry for the tiny view. I filmed vertical and apparently YouTube doesn’t like that.

I want to make sure I am doing it right. I have a face on too. Turning rates do look better as well as my A6.

Yea that first one looks perfect. It’s obviously a different story when the other hand gets back on the club but as far as practicing with just the right arm, that looks perfect. 

[boogielicious]

Just now, JetFan1983 said:

Yea that first one looks perfect. It’s obviously a different story when the other hand gets back on the club but as far as practicing with just the right arm, that looks perfect. 

Thanks. I like the pitch elbow feel, which is part of what I am already working on. Plus, it does warm you up pretty fast without putting stress on your joints.

[JetFan1983]

On 1/6/2019 at 1:43 PM, JetFan1983 said:

I think what can sometimes happen to an amateur golfer is that when they get really steep on the downswing, they end up reducing their turning rates dramatically to compensate. When they learn later on that the shaft has to shallow out, they try to do it, but because the turning rates are so stalled, it has basically no chance of working. Obviously even with great turning rates, this is still really hard to implement but without them, it's almost impossible.

I was just looking at @phillyk's swing recently, and it's definitely a good example of someone who shallows the club very well while not having what one would call ideal turning rates. In fact, his turning rates are what one would probably classify as stalled out, and yet he shallows it beautifully. And he plays very good golf, having recently shot 67 

 

My point though is that Erik is definitely right that shallowing the club is largely controlled by the forearms. @phillyk's swing seems to be an exception to the rule, but he proves that ideal turning rates aren't necessary for getting rid of stubborn steepness. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by JetFan1983

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

I was just looking at @phillyk's swing recently, and it's definitely a good example of someone who shallows the club very well while not having what one would call ideal turning rates. In fact, his turning rates are what one would probably classify as stalled out, and yet he shallows it beautifully. And he plays very good golf, having recently shot 67 

 

My point though is that Erik is definitely right that shallowing the club is largely controlled by the forearms. @phillyk's swing seems to be an exception to the rule, but he proves that ideal turning rates aren't necessary for getting rid of stubborn steepness. 

This is true for me. If my right elbow does not stay in 'pitch elbow' position through to A6, I lose the shallowing. This is exactly what I am working on now in my Evolr lessons.

[phillyk]

10 hours ago, JetFan1983 said:

My point though is that Erik is definitely right that shallowing the club is largely controlled by the forearms. @phillyk's swing seems to be an exception to the rule, but he proves that ideal turning rates aren't necessary for getting rid of stubborn steepness. 

I would like to be able to get an ideal turn.  I can do it on really slow swings but speed it up and put a ball there, I don't have a chance.  I have that weird, kinda backwards move (A4 to A5) with my hands that sets the club down from coming in steep.

[lastings]

I have found this thread to be a hilarious illustration of how difficult golf is.   

2 years ago, this thread and its topic was the epitome of all the problems in my golf swing.  A steep downswing created an over-the-top move (or, vice versa), which created a weak fade with poor contact.   I have worked harder on this one idea than anything else for two years, and now i've gone too far in the other direction.   If I don't think about keeping my swing steep now, I'll shallow way to much and swing as much as 10 degrees in-to-out.   Additionally, if i have a good shoulder turn, I can't really even fade the ball if I try anymore.   

Don't get me wrong, this current situation is way better than before.   As long as focus on what I'm doing adn don't get lazy, I have the ability to swing on the path that I want.  Also, being able to swing 10 degrees in-to-out on command has given me the ability to hit big sweeping hook 3-irons when I want to, which is kind of fun.   

I just find it amusing that two years I couldn't swing in-to-out if I wanted to, and now I can't do the opposite.   golf is hard.   

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

11 minutes ago, lastings said:

I just find it amusing that two years I couldn't swing in-to-out if I wanted to, and now I can't do the opposite.   golf is hard.   

 

 

Every swing you ever take has both in-to-out and out-to-in swing paths.  It's all about where you strike the ball along the swing's arc and face-to-path orientation. Those three factors alone determine ball flight.

[boogielicious]

8 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Every swing you ever take has both in-to-out and out-to-in swing paths.  It's all about where you strike the ball along the swing's arc and face-to-path orientation. Those three factors alone determine ball flight.

I think most folks on this site are referring to path into the ball when talking in-to-out or visa versa.

[lastings]

21 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Every swing you ever take has both in-to-out and out-to-in swing paths.  It's all about where you strike the ball along the swing's arc and face-to-path orientation. Those three factors alone determine ball flight.

in-to-out referring to path at impact.   

[iacas]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

I think most folks on this site are referring to path into the ball when talking in-to-out or visa versa.

This.