Stubborn Steepness

[nevets88]

2 hours ago, lastings said:

I have found this thread to be a hilarious illustration of how difficult golf is.   

2 years ago, this thread and its topic was the epitome of all the problems in my golf swing.  A steep downswing created an over-the-top move (or, vice versa), which created a weak fade with poor contact.   I have worked harder on this one idea than anything else for two years, and now i've gone too far in the other direction.   If I don't think about keeping my swing steep now, I'll shallow way to much and swing as much as 10 degrees in-to-out.   Additionally, if i have a good shoulder turn, I can't really even fade the ball if I try anymore.   

Don't get me wrong, this current situation is way better than before.   As long as focus on what I'm doing adn don't get lazy, I have the ability to swing on the path that I want.  Also, being able to swing 10 degrees in-to-out on command has given me the ability to hit big sweeping hook 3-irons when I want to, which is kind of fun.   

I just find it amusing that two years I couldn't swing in-to-out if I wanted to, and now I can't do the opposite.   golf is hard.   

 

 

Yep. When most people refer to over the top, it's at A4. But you can shallow ok at 4, but be over the top at A6. Or OTT - "over the bottom" between A6 and A7. Not being OTT at A4 helps a lot, but generally, it's not the end of the road imho.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Yep. When most people refer to over the top, it's at A4. But you can shallow ok at 4, but be over the top at A6. Or OTT - "over the bottom" between A6 and A7. Not being OTT at A4 helps a lot, but generally, it's not the end of the road imho.

I don't agree with the bold.

And some of the worst over-the-top moves (around A5 to A6) occur from the "deepest" and/or "shallowest" backswings.

[nevets88]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't agree with the bold.

And some of the worst over-the-top moves (around A5 to A6) occur from the "deepest" and/or "shallowest" backswings.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Hey, maybe this might be material for swing myths? My perception is that most of the time when reading magazines or video tips, instructors are talking about throwing out the angles from 4, that's not just me, right?

[Stonedude]

I cannot say enough good things about this thread and am thankful for the OP starting it!

Everything I have done with a bum shoulder leads to steep and more steepness... it's pathetic really.   But after watching the videos and the discussion about the swing it has been eye opening. 

Here is another video that has helped me clean up my takeaway (which was way inside).  All of these things have given me hope...

 

 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. Hey, maybe this might be material for swing myths? My perception is that most of the time when reading magazines or video tips, instructors are talking about throwing out the angles from 4, that's not just me, right?

I don't think "throwing out the angles" is the same as "over the top" either.

Maybe a discussion for a different topic.

[Killa]

So the topic of this thread is something I’ve been working on for quite some time. 

 

But then I look at videos like this one:

 

and look how steep he comes in? 

 

 

 

[lastings]

12 minutes ago, Killa said:

So the topic of this thread is something I’ve been working on for quite some time. 

 

But then I look at videos like this one:

 

and look how steep he comes in? 

 

 

 

well, for one, this isn't a perfect angle so you can't see exactly.   But, it looks to me like he is coming in right down the line.   Watch his first move from the top.  his hands are definitely not coming over.    Additionally, it does look like he is playing a bit of a fade here, so for that to happen he does have to be a bit over the line (if his face is square).   

[boogielicious]

15 hours ago, Killa said:

So the topic of this thread is something I’ve been working on for quite some time. 

 

But then I look at videos like this one:

 

and look how steep he comes in? 

 

 

 

He is not steep. At A5, the club shaft is pointed past the ball. Steepness is referred to the shaft pointing inside the ball at A5. It is not always required in a swing, but it can be an indicator of an out-to-in swing.

[Killa]

Ok then I might not be as steep as I thought. But I still can’t come from the inside on most shots even though I get a draw here and there. 

 

 

[DeadPoets]

On 5/24/2016 at 8:52 AM, iacas said:

You can do what I did there and look back at a mirror while making swings.

It's been the best thing I've done.

What was your feel here? Hold the tray?

[iacas]

15 hours ago, DeadPoets said:

What was your feel here? Hold the tray?

I'm not sure I know when you mean, but I'm almost never trying to "hold the tray" in the way of folding back the right wrist.

I've largely gone away from those moves. They work at slow speeds but nothing near production speed.

[DeadPoets]

47 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not sure I know when you mean, but I'm almost never trying to "hold the tray" in the way of folding back the right wrist.

I've largely gone away from those moves. They work at slow speeds but nothing near production speed.

Have you found a shallowing move that works at production speed?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DeadPoets said:

Have you found a shallowing move that works at production speed?

Everyone's different. I fix a lot of "steep" swings. Off the top of my head…

• Steeper shaft (slightly across the line, even) on the backswing.
• Not overly deep.
• Not "leaving the hands up and turning".
• Changing someone's grip.
• Palmar flexion on the downswing.
• Earlier right elbow extension.
• Hand path changes.
• Etc.

[DeadPoets]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Everyone's different. I fix a lot of "steep" swings. Off the top of my head…

• Steeper shaft (slightly across the line, even) on the backswing.
• Not overly deep.
• Not "leaving the hands up and turning".
• Changing someone's grip.
• Palmar flexion on the downswing.
• Earlier right elbow extension.
• Hand path changes.
• Etc.

• Not "leaving the hands up and turning".

That's interesting because I see a lot of guys like Gankas teaching this very move.  Keep the hands up in the imaginary circle and just squat and rotate and shaft will shallow naturally (or that's the idea at least).

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DeadPoets said:

• Not "leaving the hands up and turning".

That's interesting because I see a lot of guys like Gankas teaching this very move.  Keep the hands up in the imaginary circle and just squat and rotate and shaft will shallow naturally (or that's the idea at least).

Yeah, have you seen this?

😄

[DeadPoets]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, have you seen this?

😄

 

Some of that posters gripes were either based on exaggerations Gankas wants his players to feel, or were misinterpretations by the author imo.

Point #7 for example. Gankas wants all his players to load the inside of their trail leg in backswing, and create no more than a ball in space from the starting position of hips to hips at P4. I've seen players overdo it (like the image the author showed) and GG had them correct it.

Point #9 is in regards to the bucket drill.  GG has said he wants his players to torque the trail foot clockwise, for a righty, in transition/downswing. When yo do that you will get some external rotation of the hips. My instructor used to have me do that as well and feel like 80% of my weight stays in trail leg throughout downswing (I was a slider).

Long story short - I think any instructor could have their methods picked apart. I'm not sure that really discredits the idea of feeling like you leave the hands up as you rotate.  Guess it just depends on the player and what they need to feel.

Cheers

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, DeadPoets said:

Some of that posters gripes were either based on exaggerations Gankas wants his players to feel, or were misinterpretations by the author imo.

Okay, but that isn't the topic here, so…?

[DeadPoets]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

Okay, but that isn't the topic here, so…?

"11. George says the arms shifting out shallows the shaft. While it can it can also make the shaft get steeper or do anything else too. You can overcome the pretty weak force that shifting the hands out shallows the shaft very easily. I see people shift the arms out and steepen EVERY damn day on my lesson tee. Plus with GEARS or 3D we know the butt of the club early transition tends to move more vertically down and then moves out. It follows the movement of the body/torso: it lowers 'closed' and then starts opening up. If you have to shift your arms out and go ER, how is Rory one of the most shallow players and Noren one of the steepest?"

Again, the author isn't telling the full story and is being a bit disingenuous imo by leaving out key parts, but whatever.  I posted vid below if anybody wants to see what Gankas actually says.

 

 

Edited February 9 by DeadPoets