PGA Tour Players Not Marking Balls when In Position to Assist Another Player, #Backstopping

[BallStriker]

Should we have the entire tour play as singles with a walking scorer/official walking and watching everything? Is this "not marking ball" a matter of fact violation of the rules of golf?

[iacas]

@BallStriker, the first part is ridiculous. The second part has been discussed. Spend a little time reading.

My answer is that yes, it is often a violation. An increasingly popular one.

[BallStriker]

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

@BallStriker, the first part is ridiculous.

Of course it is.....

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

My answer is that yes, it is often a violation. An increasingly popular one.

Serious question then....why aren't these players being penalized?  

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, BallStriker said:

Serious question then....why aren't these players being penalized?  

Unspoken collusion. Boys club.

[freshmanUTA]

Sometimes i have the same opinion. If the ball is past the hole and not directly in the way or near enough the hole to use it as a backstop, who cares? But there are plenty of examples where it’s obvious that they’re doing it as a gentleman’s agreement. It’s a shame but I mean, what exactly could you do to enforce it? I get the idea of a written announcement but you can’t force a player to mark their ball can you? I’m just kind of confused as to how you’d actually enforce this. I just think there’s too much wiggle room to get out of it.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

Sometimes i have the same opinion. If the ball is past the hole and not directly in the way or near enough the hole to use it as a backstop, who cares?

The other players in the field.

The Rules of Golf allow ANY player to request that a ball they feel is in a position to assist a fellow competitor with his play to have the ball marked and lifted.

Quote

22-1. Ball Assisting Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:

a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or

b. Have any other ball lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

Note: When another ball is in motion, a ball that might influence the movement of the ball in motion must not be lifted.

Anyway…

19 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

But there are plenty of examples where it’s obvious that they’re doing it as a gentleman’s agreement. It’s a shame but I mean, what exactly could you do to enforce it? I get the idea of a written announcement but you can’t force a player to mark their ball can you?

Yes, you can.

See the Rule above.

[Vinsk]

18 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

Sometimes i have the same opinion. If the ball is past the hole and not directly in the way or near enough the hole to use it as a backstop, who cares? But there are plenty of examples where it’s obvious that they’re doing it as a gentleman’s agreement. It’s a shame but I mean, what exactly could you do to enforce it? I get the idea of a written announcement but you can’t force a player to mark their ball can you? I’m just kind of confused as to how you’d actually enforce this. I just think there’s too much wiggle room to get out of it.

Rather than worry about how to enforce it it’d be better for the guys to just start marking their balls and not be ‘that guy’ for doing so. 

In the ethics of golf players call penalties on themselves. I don’t see it being anything positive to be lax about marking. 

[BallStriker]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Unspoken collusion. Boys club. 

If players are not getting penalized, then it is not a clear violation of the rules...that is undeniable.

So, if it is a gray area and players know it is going on. and maybe believe it is going on in selective situations, then they are going to be motivated to "follow the lead"....Why?  To protect THEMSELVES against against what they feel/believe is going on elsewhere on the course.....

Sorry, this is human nature when this much is on the line....talk about integrity of the game all you want, but this is a cut-throat individual game....

Would anyone suggest that tournaments have volunteers on the side of the greens to mark every approach and require players to mark every pitch/chip/putt from off the green?

 

[Zeph]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

Unspoken collusion. Boys club.

Could the rules officials take action on it or would it have to come from players?

[iacas]

4 hours ago, BallStriker said:

If players are not getting penalized, then it is not a clear violation of the rules...that is undeniable.

No. That’s not accurate.

Everyone can roll through a stop sign and not get caught. Still illegal though unpunished.

1 hour ago, Zeph said:

Could the rules officials take action on it or would it have to come from players?

Yes.

[Vinsk]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Everyone can roll through a stop sign and not get caught. Still illegal though unpunished.

But citizens can form all the boys clubs they want...not going to stop a cop from giving a ticket if he sees it. I’ve seen plenty of instances that all common sense showed a player purposefully didn’t mark. Is it being said that rules officials are looking the other way as well? Is this where there’s a gray area? 

[Zekez]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

Unspoken collusion. Boys club.

So why aren't the rules officials calling penalties?  Isn't that their job?

Edited May 5, 2018 by Zekez

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Zekez said:

So why aren't the rules officials calling penalties?  Isn't that their job?

No. They’re there to assist. They also are not on every hole.

[nevets88]

In the broadcast where Dottie Pepper called it out and Faldo weakly defended w/knee jerk slow play spoke volumes, as did his silence towards the end of that video clip. 

[Shorty]

14 hours ago, BallStriker said:

Would anyone suggest that tournaments have volunteers on the side of the greens to mark every approach and require players to mark every pitch/chip/putt from off the green?

 

No.

[BallStriker]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

No. That’s not accurate.

Everyone can roll through a stop sign and not get caught. Still illegal though unpunished.

I get the general point, but the stop sign analogy kind of presumes no cop is seeing the rolling stops......in this situation, everything is being seen.....so, is this really a question of materiality?

 

6 hours ago, Shorty said:

No.

Exactly....so, we do not really have a practical solution for making the playing field even in every situation......there is judgment involved in the application....a gray area so to speak

[Zeph]

As long as it's a back-scratching thing and everyone takes advantage of it, I don't see this going away by itself. Only way to correct it would be for the tour to take action. Not necessarily by putting officials on every green every tournament, but by having a campaign to get rid of it. Maybe have someone on every green for a few tournaments, of course announced to the players. Let the players know that they can be penalized for it. There are situations today where players are penalized by something the officials observe, but not called by the players themselves or their competitors.

 

Maybe such a campaign would force them to make a permanent change to avoid being penalized.

 

I don't approve of it, but it's probably not a very big issue either. Of course, we don't see most of the shots that happen on the greens during a round, but I can't say I often see a ball hitting another. Then again, when it happens and a player saves a stroke or two, that could be the difference of winning and not winning a tournament. Every shot counts.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Zeph

[Vinsk]

We don’t see this in the Ryder Cup do we? So when money is on the line it’s a mutual agreement to assist each other but when it’s a USA vs Europe ....you’re on your own? It’s all a competition so seems they would all just treat it as such.