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PGA Tour Players Not Marking Balls when In Position to Assist Another Player, #Backstopping

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3 hours ago, JxQx said:

It would not have a big impact on pace of play at the pro level right now as they do not walk ahead a bit towards their ball like amateurs, but If i have to wait for a player to walk 40 yards or so to mark their ball while I'm waiting in a bunker that's added time for something that does not happen a whole lot.

And yet… if they say "Hold up, I'm gonna mark that" you've gotta wait.

Sometimes enforcement of the rules takes ten seconds.

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20 minutes ago, iacas said:

And yet… if they say "Hold up, I'm gonna mark that" you've gotta wait.

Sometimes enforcement of the rules takes ten seconds.

I agree and that's fine. It just seems from this discussion that it shouldn't be an "if they ask/say", it should be required. I could just be misinterpreting that though.

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1 minute ago, JxQx said:

I agree and that's fine. It just seems from this discussion that it shouldn't be an "if they ask/say", it should be required. I could just be misinterpreting that though.

Kokrak should have asked. It was his responsibility to protect the field.

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It's not a "Witch Hunt"

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On 10/21/2017 at 8:27 PM, CCC said:

It's not a "Witch Hunt"

Sure takes on the appearance of one at times.  It's one reason why I've never hooked up on Twitter (and Facebook is no better).  Too many negative attacks on a wide variety of topics, most often by those who have the least knowledge of the subject.  Engaging in the same sort of verbal assaults on this forum would get the user banned.

Calling this a conspiracy with no actual evidence of one is, by definition, a "Witch Hunt". 

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26 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Calling this a conspiracy with no actual evidence of one is, by definition, a "Witch Hunt". 

Rick, there's plenty of evidence.

Players have stood by greenside for a few years now while their fellow competitors play shots to the hole and they have plenty of time to go mark. In fact, since a fellow competitor has to wait, you don't even have to be right there - you just have to reasonably believe there is a chance the ball could assist the play of a fellow competitor.

The evidence is not non-existent, and it is growing.

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12 hours ago, iacas said:

Rick, there's plenty of evidence.

Players have stood by greenside for a few years now while their fellow competitors play shots to the hole and they have plenty of time to go mark. In fact, since a fellow competitor has to wait, you don't even have to be right there - you just have to reasonably believe there is a chance the ball could assist the play of a fellow competitor.

The evidence is not non-existent, and it is growing.

That is not evidence of a conspiracy.  You can suspect collusion if you want, but there is absolutely no proof that anyone conspired to anything.  What little evidence that suspicion provides is completely circumstantial, and you can't provide a motive for such a conspiracy.  

You may be right that there is a tacit conspiracy, but that would be very hard to prove to the point of meting out any punishment.  Suspicion and supposition certainly wouldn't convict anyone in a court of law, and I feel that you have to hold it to at least that high a standard. 

Edited by Fourputt

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On 10/22/2017 at 6:00 AM, Golfingdad said:

Correct.  It’s a problem on the PGA tour, not the LPGA tour, so it’s not a witch hunt, but rather a wizard hunt. :)

I believe that the word witch is gender neutral.

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On 10/24/2017 at 3:24 AM, Fourputt said:

That is not evidence of a conspiracy.

Yes, it is. Something happening once or twice, you can toss aside. Something happening multiple times, and/or with increasing frequency, it's evidence that something is up.

I've attended, as you know, PGA Tour events. There's a lot more of this happening now than 10 years ago, and very few of it is seen on TV.

On 10/24/2017 at 3:24 AM, Fourputt said:

You can suspect collusion if you want, but there is absolutely no proof that anyone conspired to anything.

You seem to be confusing evidence with proof. At least the definitions I'm using.

You can present evidence, the weight of which leads a jury to convict. If you have PROOF that someone killed someone else, however, it's pretty much an open-and-shut case.

On 10/24/2017 at 3:24 AM, Fourputt said:

What little evidence that suspicion provides is completely circumstantial, and you can't provide a motive for such a conspiracy.

Huh?

My suspicions aren't the evidence I'm talking about. The "evidence" in this case are the number of times I've seen players knowingly, willingly, with plenty of time to mark… leave a ball in a position to assist another player in his play.

That's the "evidence." Not my suspicions. The evidence leads to my suspicions.

On 10/24/2017 at 3:24 AM, Fourputt said:

You may be right that there is a tacit conspiracy, but that would be very hard to prove to the point of meting out any punishment.

I agree.

But the PGA Tour should do the right thing here, send a memo to all PGA Tour players informing them of the rule as written, and tell them that the referees have been told to enforce the rule, and that players found more than twice in a season not protecting the field will face a possible supplemental fine or something.

The PGA Tour brand is a clean cut one, and this threatens to undermine it (not a ton, but still), as Geoff Shackelford and others have written.

I say nip it in the bud. It's seemingly growing and increasing in frequency, and when you have the Player of the Year saying the stuff he's said… it could potentially get ugly (tempest in a teapot ugly, since it's just GOLF, but still…).

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More of this today in the final round of the WGC-HSBC in Shanghai.  On the 15th hole hole, Stenson had pitched from greenside to within a couple feet of the pin.  Koepka and DJ both had shots from greenside bunkers to make, and Stenson didn't mark his ball.  Announcers even commented on it. 

Neither of them hit Stenson's ball, but it could have affected the outcome, particularly since these guys (and Justin Rose) were all at the top of the leaderboard.

Similar situation at the 17th hole.  Stenson pitched onto the green to within a few feet, doesn't mark his ball, and then DJ with a shot from a greenside bunker.

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21 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

More of this today in the final round of the WGC-HSBC in Shanghai.  On the 15th hole hole, Stenson had pitched from greenside to within a couple feet of the pin.  Koepka and DJ both had shots from greenside bunkers to make, and Stenson didn't mark his ball.  Announcers even commented on it.

Do you have video of this?

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37 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

On my TiVo 

Post it! Include the commentary.

If you're able to record a .mov file and can't find a place to host it or don't want to upload it to YouTube yourself, let's find a way to get it to me, and I'll upload it.

Include all the examples if you can, including how long it was between shots, etc. if possible.

Thanks.

I'd record the final round (GC usually re-airs them), but they're only re-airing the third round for some reason.

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Quote

Thought: there is a better than decent chance Johnson and Koepka could play Stenson and eventual HSBC Champions winner Justin Rose in next year's Ryder Cup. I wonder if Stenson would leave his ball down as a backstop then? If so, then the game really has changed!

Ho hum. Plenty of time to say "hey wait up, I'm gonna mark that one." To protect himself, too, and the rest of the field.

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12 hours ago, iacas said:

Post it! Include the commentary.

If you're able to record a .mov file and can't find a place to host it or don't want to upload it to YouTube yourself, let's find a way to get it to me, and I'll upload it.

Include all the examples if you can, including how long it was between shots, etc. if possible.

Thanks.

I'd record the final round (GC usually re-airs them), but they're only re-airing the third round for some reason.

Give me a few days. I can do it, but it means moving and converting the whole 5-hour recording.  (I haven't figured out how to transfer and convert only a part of a TiVo recoding.) Then just editing to the appropriate few minutes I know how to do.

Something to do while the goblins and ghosts are out trying to get some candy from us. 

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15 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Give me a few days. I can do it, but it means moving and converting the whole 5-hour recording.  (I haven't figured out how to transfer and convert only a part of a TiVo recoding.) Then just editing to the appropriate few minutes I know how to do.

Something to do while the goblins and ghosts are out trying to get some candy from us. 

Or… just record it on your phone from your TV screen. I mean, the stuff you said is great if you want super high fidelity, but a phone even hand-held (resting on a makeshift stand is better) will be more than sufficient.

And, it helps to avoid YouTube's auto-copyright detection crap, which even though this is used properly and not in violation of copyright laws, is still better to avoid than to get a strike even temporarily on a YouTube account.

Of course, if you want to do all the work (sometimes I do way more than I should because I enjoy it), don't let me stop you. Just know it's not really necessary.

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