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Muirfield Out of Open Rota, Denies Women Membership


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10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nope. If they don't want to, it's their right not to allow it. Just as it's the right of Curves to not allow men. Or the right of the San Francisco Jewish Council to not allow a Roman Catholic member.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with this.

It's their right. Just as it's the R&A's right to punish them for it.

Yeah, we're learning that you're just here to trumpet political correct bullshit. :-)

Guess what? Virtually every country club is discriminatory if you want to broaden the definition as far as you have. They require you to have the approval of another member to begin the initiation process, and then the board often has to vote to accept you or not. Nearly every private club, everywhere. The key word there is "private."

You are discriminatory, too, or else anyone who wanted to be your friend would be, or anyone who wanted to make a business arrangement would be granted their right, or you'd accept the first car offered to you when you bought a new car, and you'd buy whatever was on sale. Instead, you choose what you do, what deals you make, and with whom you do them. You too discriminate all the time - what TV shows you watch, what golf course you decide to play, what you have for breakfast - if you broaden the definition so far as to essentially say "to make a choice."

Screen%20Shot%202016-05-21%20at%2012.34.

The key word there is "unjust." They're perfectly justified in choosing who they wish to associate with, just as you're free to choose who you want to be friends with and what activities you want to do in a day.

Would I vote to allow women into the club? Yes. But that doesn't mean I also can't defend their right to choose the opposite. It would be foolish of anyone to assume that someone voicing support for their right to stay men-only for now would vote the same given the choice.

Or do other people get to tell you who you should be friends with? After all, maybe you're friends with too many 27-year-old white male jock wannabes?

Very well said, drop the mic, there's nothing more to say.  

Joe Paradiso

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42 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nope. If they don't want to, it's their right not to allow it. Just as it's the right of Curves to not allow men. Or the right of the San Francisco Jewish Council to not allow a Roman Catholic member.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with this.

It's their right. Just as it's the R&A's right to punish them for it.

Yeah, we're learning that you're just here to trumpet political correct bullshit. :-)

Guess what? Virtually every country club is discriminatory if you want to broaden the definition as far as you have. They require you to have the approval of another member to begin the initiation process, and then the board often has to vote to accept you or not. Nearly every private club, everywhere. The key word there is "private."

You are discriminatory, too, or else anyone who wanted to be your friend would be, or anyone who wanted to make a business arrangement would be granted their right, or you'd accept the first car offered to you when you bought a new car, and you'd buy whatever was on sale. Instead, you choose what you do, what deals you make, and with whom you do them. You too discriminate all the time - what TV shows you watch, what golf course you decide to play, what you have for breakfast - if you broaden the definition so far as to essentially say "to make a choice."

Screen%20Shot%202016-05-21%20at%2012.34.

The key word there is "unjust." They're perfectly justified in choosing who they wish to associate with, just as you're free to choose who you want to be friends with and what activities you want to do in a day.

Would I vote to allow women into the club? Yes. But that doesn't mean I also can't defend their right to choose the opposite. It would be foolish of anyone to assume that someone voicing support for their right to stay men-only for now would vote the same given the choice.

Or do other people get to tell you who you should be friends with? After all, maybe you're friends with too many 27-year-old white male jock wannabes?

Your whole stance fails to take into account the privilege a male has in our society over a female. 

We need to take steps to fix that.  Not further engrain it. 

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Tony  


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2 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

Your whole stance fails to take into account the privilege a male has in our society over a female. 

We need to take steps to fix that.  Not further engrain it. 

Privilege, really?  What privilege?  A woman is running for POTUS, we have women on the Supreme Court.  Where is all this privilege?  Women can do whatever they like, soldiers, fireman, police officers, CEO's.  This privilege crap is a crutch that politically correct use to make excuses.  

I've raised my daughter to believe she can do anything a man can, she's currently in school to become a doctor, she'd laugh at you if you told her that her gender was a detriment.  

Back on Topic:  We're talking about club exclusivity, why aren't you outraged by Curves and Women only country clubs?  

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Joe Paradiso

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27 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

Your whole stance fails to take into account the privilege a male has in our society over a female. 

We need to take steps to fix that.  Not further engrain it. 

Muirfield is a PRIVATE club. They have the right to establish what ever admittance criteria they want. The R&A has their right to set whatever criteria they want for the clubs who get into the rotation for The Open if Muirfield rather maintain their males only status over being in The Open rotation then that is their choice. 

If women want to set up their own club that is women only then they can. No one is stopping them. 

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Of course the men in here are blind to the discrimination of woman.  Not shocking. 

The facts are that woman are at a disadvantage for many jobs and social opportunities. 

 

Tony  


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7 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

Of course the men in here are blind to the discrimination of woman.  Not shocking. 

The facts are that woman are at a disadvantage for many jobs and social opportunities. 

 

Oh, so enlighten us, where is all this discrimination?  As a father of a hardworking strong willed daughter I've yet to encounter a single circumstance where her gender has placed her in any disadvantage.  

I'd agree up until maybe even 10 years ago, women might have been at a disadvantage but today, no way.  In fact, my son who is three years younger and has slightly better grades and test scores than my daughter did in high school will likely not get accepted to the same university my daughter did because he's a white male and Universities these days seem to set the bar higher for white males than they do for women and minorities.    

Joe Paradiso

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20 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

The facts are that woman are at a disadvantage for many jobs and social opportunities. 

That has nothing to do with a private club setting up admittance criteria as a member. Are there situations in society where men are given unfair advantages in the workplace over women, absolutely. That has no weight in this discussion about Muirfield. 

Stop making blanket generalizations about the people on this forum just because we see the difference between what a private entity can nor can not do. This club is not open to the public, so it is not discriminating in this situation by not allowing women to join. 

7 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I'd agree up until maybe even 10 years ago, women might have been at a disadvantage but today, no way.  In fact, my son who is three years younger and has slightly better grades and test scores than my daughter did in high school will likely not get accepted to the same university my daughter did because he's a white male and Universities these days seem to set the bar higher for white males than they do for women and minorities.    

That's a tad different than being a woman in corporate America. There are still a sexist culture in a lot of corporate America. I agree it's not as bad as it was a decade ago. 

Heck look at the cooking industry. Being a head chef of a restaurant is still primarily a male driven industry. It is very hard for a women to make their own path versus a male who has easier access. Just because women are not barred from being a head chef doesn't mean that they get equal consideration when a job opens up. 

 

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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41 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

That has nothing to do with a private club setting up admittance criteria as a member. Are there situations in society where men are given unfair advantages in the workplace over women, absolutely. That has no weight in this discussion about Muirfield. 

Stop making blanket generalizations about the people on this forum just because we see the difference between what a private entity can nor can not do. This club is not open to the public, so it is not discriminating in this situation by not allowing women to join. 

That's a tad different than being a woman in corporate America. There are still a sexist culture in a lot of corporate America. I agree it's not as bad as it was a decade ago. 

Heck look at the cooking industry. Being a head chef of a restaurant is still primarily a male driven industry. It is very hard for a women to make their own path versus a male who has easier access. Just because women are not barred from being a head chef doesn't mean that they get equal consideration when a job opens up. 

 

I haven't worked for corporate America for a long time but as a small business owner that dealt with a lot of big businesses I can say I interacted with as many female executives as I did male.  I've read and heard the news about there still being a pay disparity and good ole boys network but I think that is more the exception and not the rule.  

I believe every individual has different strengths and weaknesses which qualify them to be more successful in some jobs over others.  I have no idea what the skill sets are for a head chef except from what I've seen by watching Hells Kitchen but it seems strong leadership and the ability to handle tremendous amounts of pressure while maintaining a level head are key requirements.  I'm curious if it's a numbers game i.e. more men are in the industry so in turn there will be a higher percentage of male head chefs or if there are actual barriers.  

Most golf pro's I see are male, does that mean there is discrimination against female golf pro's or do more men just pursue jobs in that industry?  

Joe Paradiso

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11 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I haven't worked for corporate America for a long time but as a small business owner that dealt with a lot of big businesses I can say I interacted with as many female executives as I did male.  I've read and heard the news about there still being a pay disparity and good ole boys network but I think that is more the exception and not the rule.  

Being an executive is a unique position. If you are driven enough, sure you can push through to that top level. I'm not sure about more mid-level areas. 

14 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I believe every individual has different strengths and weaknesses which qualify them to be more successful in some jobs over others.  I have no idea what the skill sets are for a head chef except from what I've seen by watching Hells Kitchen but it seems strong leadership and the ability to handle tremendous amounts of pressure while maintaining a level head are key requirements.  I'm curious if it's a numbers game i.e. more men are in the industry so in turn there will be a higher percentage of male head chefs or if there are actual barriers.  

That is a good point. If women don't want to go into the chef industry then it skews the percentages.  Maybe since being a head chef has been so male-centric that owners might have a tendency to just go with the norm even if there is an equally qualified women?  

This type of discussion is a hard one to quantify. 

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Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

Of course the men in here are blind to the discrimination of woman. Not shocking. 

My wife and daughter think that if the club wants to stay male only they should be able to do so.

We are not talking about society as a whole but rather a private club free to make their own decisions, just as you are free to do.

It's telling that your only response to my longer earlier post was off-topic and very brief.

You have nothing to offer except PC stuff. The club is not public.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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16 hours ago, newtogolf said:

So then I guess the women only golf clubs and Curves don't want men around and just want to discriminate too.  

This is a totally different situation and you know it. Curves is far from being an elite gym. The strength training machines are basically toys. I'm not a member because I prefer a harder work out. I can't see why a man would want to join.

But here's the thing. It's access to networking and the glass ceiling in business. Alastair Brown, for example, the former Secretary of Muirfield is the CEO of the Royal Bank of Scotland. The current secretary Stewart McEwen, is Lettings Negotiator at Belvoir Edinburgh, a biotechnology firm. So we're talking about corporate leaders, leaders in the financial industry, probably members of Parliament, some members of the College of Justice, among others. A lot of business gets discussed there other than golf. Women get shut out of decision making processes this way like we have for centuries. This is why it is discriminatory. It has nothing to do with political correctness. It is 2016. It is time for things to change.

Defending this vote is like defending Augusta's policy for not allowing members based on race until 1990.

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3 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

Defending this vote is like defending Augusta's policy for not allowing members based on race until 1990.

FWIW I'm glad they allowed women into Augusta, but just as I did then and would do now I would defend their right to make the decision they want to make.

It's a private club. It's that simple. Should the San Francisco Jewish Club be forced to admit Roman Catholics? Muslims?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Nice hyperbole, Erik. 

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Julia

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On 5/19/2016 at 10:53 AM, iacas said:

Dumbasses can't join MENSA.

That's because Dumbasses think MENSA is something that happens to all women as they age, lol.  

If they knew what it was, you can be sure there'd be a Dumbass Advocacy Committee formed to get them in.  I mean, it's not fair that only smart people get to do smart stuff like write books and give lectures and all the stupid people have to hang around and do stupid stuff like watch tv or nothing.  It's time to level the playing field.     

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42 minutes ago, iacas said:

FWIW I'm glad they allowed women into Augusta, but just as I did then and would do now I would defend their right to make the decision they want to make.

It's a private club. It's that simple. Should the San Francisco Jewish Club be forced to admit Roman Catholics? Muslims?

I'm pretty sure we can't be Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders or Laker Girls either.  

Joe Paradiso

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It seems to me that one "side" is arguing that Muirfield not allowing women members is dumb and outdated, and the other "side" is arguing that it's their right to exclude women as members since they are a private club. Why are the two viewpoints mutually exclusive?  Who is arguing that private clubs should be forced to admit women members (an inference that many in this thread seem to be making)?  

I haven't seen or heard of anyone making the case that they should be forced to accept women. That's very different from saying that it makes no sense to exclude women.  

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6 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I haven't seen or heard of anyone making the case that they should be forced to accept women. That's very different from saying that it makes no sense to exclude women.  

I have seen that.-Puma and Julia are talking as if they should have accepted women and they are deplorable men to not have done so and are doing some great social injustice. Others too have.

2 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Nice hyperbole, Erik. 

I am confused-What part was hyperbole?

I would have voted to allow women but it is fine by me that they did not.

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"The expert golfer has maximum time to make minimal compensations. The poorer player has minimal time to make maximum compensations." - And no, I'm not Mac. Please do not PM me about it. I just think he is a crazy MFer and we could all use a little more crazy sometimes.

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Note: This thread is 2635 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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