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ClusterF&#? Rules Today at USKG


iacas
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So today at a USKG event (18 holes, 5000 yards, 12-14 girls) a gal I won't name was playing in "our" threesome (my daughter and I).

On the tee this girl, I'll call her Jane, hits one way right through some trees toward another fairway, but it didn't seem to hit anything solid. I said, because Jane was already slow, that she might want to hit a provisional.

She did, and hit it down the middle with a little draw.

Natalie had popped her drive up so we went to play hers. She hit a 3W to the right side of the fairway near the green (we thought) and by then Jane and her dad had been looking for awhile. I said "I think it's back this way a bit" and they gave up shortly thereafter, not finding it. They went to find their provisional.

Natalie and I looked for her ball. We were nearly at the four minute mark when Jane dropped to the left of the fairway near a cart path and a small cliff that, by the tee, was a lateral but up here was unmarked with any stakes or lines at all. I assumed she found her ball and was taking a drop from the cart path. She hit her ball over the back of the green and I saw another ball there. I went and found that it was Natalie's (whew! Somehow it went an extra 50 yards?).

At this point things got weird.

While walking around the left back side of the green, Jane says "here's my ball!" (her provisional). The dad asked the mom of the third competitor "what do we do now?" She said something like "I don't know, ask him" (me). The dad said "just pick it up and we'll play that one."

She chipped on and two-putted.

Long story short, the guy asked what he should write down for the hole. Because it's USKG, the highest score they can take on any hole is a 10, and I was tempted to say "10" and leave it at that. I mean, the girl violated several rules, but… how would you score it?

I said "okay, she hit the ball six times. Twice off the tee, once to the back of the green, one on the green, and two putts. She got a stroke and distance penalty for the provisional that ended up being the ball you used, and why did you drop over there? Was it a lateral hazard?" He said "no, we dropped because we lost her ball."

Ugh.

In the end, the guy wrote down an 8 for his daughter (my daughter had his card). Now, there's no real way that she got only an 8, but the girl finished in last place anyway, so whatever. And yet… despite being assessed only two penalty strokes for this, the dad acted like a huge jerk the rest of the round to Natalie. She hit a shot from 75 yards to six feet over water, and nothing. Oh, he was plenty chipper with the third girl, giving her plenty of "good shot"s and "nice putt"s, but didn't say a word to Natalie the rest of the round.

Never mind the fact that the guy would stand on the line of his daughter's play every now and then, the guy and his daughter would pick up or roll their ball slightly to "identify" it and put it back close to but never quite where it was… and a few other things here and there.

:sigh:

And yet, I'm certain in that dad's eyes, I'm the jerk. He said something like "I think she had enough penalty strokes on that hole." And "Next time I don't care how long they have to wait we're going to find your ball." After that comment I told him about the five minute rule. Nobody was rushing him - we were 60 yards away trying to find Natalie's ball. We were about 1/2 or 3/4 of a hole behind, but any pressure to rush things came from him. I also told him that you can't drop for a lost ball - it's always stroke and distance.

But no matter. He wasn't hearing any of it.


Did I handle things as well as I could? Probably not. My obligation is to Natalie, not to make sure he's not violating rules left and right. Goodness knows what he should have actually scored for the hole, but 8 is a gift, really. And clearly the guy doesn't know the Rules very well at all… so, what, I could have pulled out the Rules book and shown him things? I felt that would just tick him off more.

Jane stood with her shadow over the hole and we had to ask her to move twice. Once she was standing 15 feet away from the hole on Natalie's line from 30 feet. They were slow. On the 18th hole, Jane dunked her third in the water hazard (yellow) and he asked me what to do: I told him that last year there was a drop zone and that he should go see if it was still there, and when he came back, he was pissed - again - that she had to play from behind the hazard. When she dropped she just rolled the ball out of her hand at her waist level and played it from there, about two or three yards right of the line I'd indicated (she chose the "drop on the line from the hole through where it last crossed the margin").

The moral of this lousy tale? If you're gonna enter your kid into a golf tournament, know the basic rules. If you screw up, don't be a jerk and treat the other kid badly. Identify your ball without picking it up or rolling it around. Learn what you do when you hit it in a hazard or lose your ball. Know the basic stuff. And be a fucking adult, man.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Unbelievable. Can't believe they play in a tournament and didn't know the basic rules and then gets butt hurt when they're told the correct ways to proceed. 

Mike McLoughlin

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I call them participation trophy parents.  They want their kids involved in sports but don't want them to deal with any of the harshness and reality of competitive sports.

Statements like "I think she had enough penalty strokes on that hole" is their mentality.  Let's break the rules so poor Jane doesn't feel bad and her score is so bad we can't go home and brag to our family and friends on how great she did.  

Participation trophy parents do a disservice to their own kids and others who have to deal with their tantrums and poor sportsmanship.  

Joe Paradiso

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Nothing brings out the worse in parents like organized sports for the kids. It got to the point where no one would volunteer (key word) to umpire Little League Baseball games in this area because of a-hole parents getting pissed at calls that didn't go their kid's way.

Sounds like you were in a no-win situation Erik. He asked, you told, and he copped an attitude.

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Jon

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There's a Little League field that has a sign to parents that says there are no college or pro scouts here today so lets just let the kids have fun.

However a strike is a strike and a hits a hit. One team wins, another loses. I don't understand the everybody wins mentality we have for kids sports. It will not serve them well when your competing for a promotion later in life.

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I think all things considered Erik you handled it pretty well and there wasn't anything you could do or say short of out right and blatant lying to make dad happy. I probably would have been a little snarkier myself so you did a good job trying to toe the line in my opinion.

It's still a good lesson for your daughter in sportsmanship and doing the right thing. I talk with my daughter about things like that and parents such as that and tell her that what's okay for them is not okay for us, we do what's right and compete fairly even if we know others sometimes may not.

Dad sounds like a dick and he isn't doing  his daughter any favors in the long run. 

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Is there a cap on the number of times she could be called for traveling in basketball? If you strike out 3 times in a baseball game, are you allowed a free base on your next at bat? Rules exist in any game to ensure fair play for all, not to limit better players from running away with a competition. If she got 2 free strokes on that hole, then everyone should get 2.

- Shane

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Haha, what a prick.  My kids never played organized golf but I've seen the same dad on the baseball diamond, the hockey rink, football field, and volleyball court (often the mom there, believe it or not).

Lots of assholes in the world.  I used confront it when I saw it, if my kid was out of earshot and much to my wife's (now ex) chagrin.  I'm older now so more patient but I'm impressed with how you managed it.  Maybe you could inform the committee, if only for them to beware in future events.

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7 hours ago, Gator Hazard said:

It's still a good lesson for your daughter in sportsmanship and doing the right thing. I talk with my daughter about things like that and parents such as that and tell her that what's okay for them is not okay for us, we do what's right and compete fairly even if we know others sometimes may not.

Except that she was treated like crap by the dad the rest of the way in. The hole where had to ask her to move her shadow was #12, the next hole.

It still bothers me today that the guy who got off easy, the one who broke all the rules, was the butthurt prick in the situation. His own daughter was hurt by his actions, as well as my daughter.

And no doubt in his mind I'm the jerk, and he'll go home and tell his daughter that I ruined their fun, and his wife, and his friends… :-P Hell if I care much. The truth is on my side. It'll stop bugging me in a few hours (this thread is cathartic) and then come up again the next time Natalie's paired with Jane again.

So many basic rules broken.

Whatever.

P.S. The guy drives a BMW i8. ;-) Didn't see that until he was standing by it 200 yards away from where his daughter was getting her medal for finishing fifth.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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13 minutes ago, iacas said:

Except that she was treated like crap by the dad the rest of the way in. The hole where had to ask her to move her shadow was #12, the next hole.

It still bothers me today that the guy who got off easy, the one who broke all the rules, was the butthurt prick in the situation. His own daughter was hurt by his actions, as well as my daughter.

And no doubt in his mind I'm the jerk, and he'll go home and tell his daughter that I ruined their fun, and his wife, and his friends… :-P Hell if I care much. The truth is on my side. It'll stop bugging me in a few hours (this thread is cathartic) and then come up again the next time Natalie's paired with Jane again.

So many basic rules broken.

Whatever.

P.S. The guy drives a BMW i8. ;-) Didn't see that until he was standing by it 200 yards away from where his daughter was getting her medal for finishing fifth.

I know it sucks but you know as well as anyone that life involves people of all walks and it can still be a good lesson in that sometimes you are just going to have to accept that you can't avoid dealing with assholes whether in sports or in work and there are ways to deal with them. She knows you know the game far better than that ass clown. 

Besides nothing is sweeter than beating a person like that and your daughter will always get the best last word when she continually outplays her. That's always the best part. Have a great weekend.

 

Edited by Gator Hazard
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59 minutes ago, iacas said:

Except that she was treated like crap by the dad the rest of the way in. The hole where had to ask her to move her shadow was #12, the next hole.

It still bothers me today that the guy who got off easy, the one who broke all the rules, was the butthurt prick in the situation. His own daughter was hurt by his actions, as well as my daughter.

And no doubt in his mind I'm the jerk, and he'll go home and tell his daughter that I ruined their fun, and his wife, and his friends… :-P Hell if I care much. The truth is on my side. It'll stop bugging me in a few hours (this thread is cathartic) and then come up again the next time Natalie's paired with Jane again.

So many basic rules broken.

Whatever.

P.S. The guy drives a BMW i8. ;-) Didn't see that until he was standing by it 200 yards away from where his daughter was getting her medal for finishing fifth.

These types of parents think they and their kids are entitled to do well and anyone that denies them are the jerks.  He's so entitled and immature that he allowed his beef with you filter down to how he treated your daughter.  

It sucks for your daughter but it's a good life lesson for her that this will be the mentality of most people she deals with growing up and that she shouldn't pay any attention to them or evaluate herself based on their actions.  

I don't like to stereotype based on cars people own but obviously the i8 further reinforces the opinion I had of the guy in your original post, he's an entitled, self absorbed jerk.  

Joe Paradiso

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7 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

These types of parents think they and their kids are entitled to do well and anyone that denies them are the jerks.  He's so entitled and immature that he allowed his beef with you filter down to how he treated your daughter.  

It sucks for your daughter but it's a good life lesson for her that this will be the mentality of most people she deals with growing up and that she shouldn't pay any attention to them or evaluate herself based on their actions.

She and I treated it as "Look at that jerk. Let's try to hit as many good shots that he won't say 'good shot' to as possible." :-) We were also more complimentary to Jane than we'd probably normally have been, and engaged in conversation with the other mom a little bit more. (Just a few times. We still mostly worried about her game. This was just something to do in down moments. ;-))

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Jane's success in her dad's eyes will be when she marries into money.

"My ball is on top of a rock in the hazard, do I get some sort of relief?"

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21 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

These types of parents think they and their kids are entitled to do well and anyone that denies them are the jerks. 

Yes so entitled that they don't think they need to follow the rules or that the rules (or basic golf etiquette) should infringe on their experience. 

Mike McLoughlin

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I don't know what his choice of car had to do with his behavior, but if he had a problem with you,, there is no excuse to be rude to your daughter. I know if I was playing with a golf pro, I would welcome any help with rules. Some people feel rules and etiquette don't apply to them. This seems to apply on and off the course. 

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You can't be mad at the kid. It's the parent's fault. I mean did the dad even know how to play golf? I might not have been so charitable. I mean so what if it's 12-14 year olds. It's still a competition. I might have told the guy "You are going to get your kid disqualified if you don't observe the rules of golf."

The fact of the matter is that most people don't know the rules of the game. If you're going to play competitively you have to know them. If you just go out on the course and play something closely resembling the game of golf to have fun among friends that's another story. But this was a competition. It's the responsibility of both the player (Jane in this case) and her caddie father (Idiot) to know the rules and etiquette. 

I've played casual rounds with golf pros before and there have been liberties taken with the rules for pace of play, but the pro has always gone over with me what the correct rule would be for competition purposes.

Julia

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44 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

You can't be mad at the kid. It's the parent's fault. I mean did the dad even know how to play golf?

Nobody was mad at the kid.

The dad played. He's even played the course we played.

45 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

I might have told the guy "You are going to get your kid disqualified if you don't observe the rules of golf."

Well the most they could really get is a 10.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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On 5/28/2016 at 11:39 PM, iacas said:

The moral of this lousy tale? If you're gonna enter your kid into a golf tournament, know the basic rules. If you screw up, don't be a jerk and treat the other kid badly. Identify your ball without picking it up or rolling it around. Learn what you do when you hit it in a hazard or lose your ball. Know the basic stuff. And be a ****ing adult, man.

I 100% agree. When it comes to any sport a parent wants to enter their kid into, especially something like golf, where you don't typically have a coach it should be the parents responsibility to teach their kid the rules of the game. It is also imperative that the parent condones themselves with some level of good sportsmanship. 

 

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