Ball at Rest Moved - How Would You Improve This Rule?

[Club Rat]

Here is my 2 cents worth.

If it is caused by a player in any physical manner by making contact to the ball, they should be penalized, unless it is in the act of marking the ball.

If a ball moves under any other circumstance, ball should be replaced without penalty.

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

If it is caused by a player in any physical manner by making contact to the ball, they should be penalized, unless it is in the act of marking the ball.

The problem with that is that a player can make a ball move without physically touching it.

[jamo]

7 hours ago, Fourputt said:

If the ball oscillates, there is no penalty.  Oscillating is not moving under the Rules of Golf.

How do you prove a ball oscillated and didn't move? Or is just saying "it oscillated" enough?

[Club Rat]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

The problem with that is that a player can make a ball move without physically touching it.

Yes it happens and my suggestion is when that happens, no foul.

Quote

My view point is to simplify and improve the rule, when it occurs by any physical contact to the ball by a player.

 

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Yes it happens and my suggestion is when that happens, no foul.

You still have to determine if the player caused it to move. Or an opponent. Caddie. Fellow competitor. Outside agency.

Or if it was the wind or something else.

[CarlSpackler]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

He soled the club near the ball. Twice, IIRC, relatively close to the time the ball moved. He also waved the putter back and forth near the ball, too.

And the player is obviously in contact with the grass at pretty much all times, unless he's figured out a way to hover. In which case I suspect 14-3 might come into play.

You say near, but to me, it's not that near, at least not near enough to cause the ball to move. Perhaps they need to designate how many inches or cm a putter comes to the vicinity of the ball before a penalty is assessed. ???

In the end, I'm glad it didn't take THE Open from him.

[mcanadiens]

9 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

In the end, I'm glad it didn't take THE Open from him.

I think about everyone can agree with this given the fella's recent past.

[Pete F]

Just make the rule play it as it lies, no touchy, no feely, no lining it up with some silly marks on the ball. If it rolls you still have to play it as it lies. All this ball polishing should be against the rules

[rehmwa]

43 minutes ago, Pete F said:

Just make the rule play it as it lies, no touchy, no feely, no lining it up with some silly marks on the ball. If it rolls you still have to play it as it lies. All this ball polishing should be against the rules

I like it - the only time you get to touch the ball is between picking it out of the hole, and teeing it up on the next tee box

maybe that would speed up play too.  Dirty ball during putting?  too bad, golf's not fair.  you should have kept it in the fairway

[David in FL]

48 minutes ago, Pete F said:

Just make the rule play it as it lies, no touchy, no feely, no lining it up with some silly marks on the ball. If it rolls you still have to play it as it lies. All this ball polishing should be against the rules

 

5 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I like it - the only time you get to touch the ball is between picking it out of the hole, and teeing it up on the next tee box

maybe that would speed up play too.  Dirty ball during putting?  too bad, golf's not fair.  you should have kept it in the fairway

So, bring back stymies?  You want to go there?  Imagine what that would do to pace of play these days!  

[Fourputt]

38 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I like it - the only time you get to touch the ball is between picking it out of the hole, and teeing it up on the next tee box

maybe that would speed up play too.  Dirty ball during putting?  too bad, golf's not fair.  you should have kept it in the fairway

Silly suggestion.  I get more dirt or mud on my ball from drives landing in the fairway or approaches landing on the green than from any place else on the course.  

You would have the game revert to 1744 and the original 13 rules?  Let me know how many rounds you fail to finish because those rules don't address any of the issues that can arise on modern courses in stroke play (stroke play hadn't yet been invented).  In match play it worked because if a player wound up in a situation not covered by the rules, he picked up and conceded the hole.  Can't do that in stroke play. 

[jamo]

3 hours ago, jamo said:

How do you prove a ball oscillated and didn't move? Or is just saying "it oscillated" enough?

Does anyone have an answer to this? Is oscillation reviewable? How do you prove a ball has oscillated and not moved?

[Asheville]

Prove, I'm not sure proof is attainable. 

However, You Honor, my ball was sitting in the short grass with the logo facing me. As I addressed the ball, my club lightly touched it. The ball jiggled a bit, but when the jiggling stopped the logo was still facing me. I sure didn't look like it changed position.

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, David in FL said:

 

So, bring back stymies?  You want to go there?  Imagine what that would do to pace of play these days!  

 

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Silly suggestion.  I get more dirt or mud on my ball from drives landing in the fairway or approaches landing on the green than from any place else on the course.  

You would have the game revert to 1744 and the original 13 rules?  Let me know how many rounds you fail to finish because those rules don't address any of the issues that can arise on modern courses in stroke play (stroke play hadn't yet been invented).  In match play it worked because if a player wound up in a situation not covered by the rules, he picked up and conceded the hole.  Can't do that in stroke play. 

 

I'm thinking one of you gets my wryness and the other took it seriously.  You get to guess which one you are.....

and anyway - what's wrong with 1744? lots of stuff happened then - hunting, picking bugs, nobles wearing excessively uncomfortable clothing.....  (I'd still finish the round regardless of whether there are rules or not, I like 'glof')

but, Fourputt has a good point, in attempts to keep their balls clean (you heard me), I could just see pros running out on the fairway and trying to clean them up so their shots have a better chance of staying clean - it would slow down the game even more.  But it would increase the sales of automatic fairway cleaning equipment.

[turtleback]

23 hours ago, iacas said:

And… people are ignoring that DJ gave misinformation. That didn't help the RO. But he has to be better. Look at his page: http://www.usga.org/about/mark-e-newell-2147496271.html.

 

I blame the RO for basing his ruling on that without probing at all.  And I am not even sure it was misinformation.  He didn't think he had moved the ball and he didn't ground his club, in the sense of behind the ball, which is what Dustin meant, in all likelihood, not the grounding when he was taking his practice swings.  So I will agree that there was miscommunication, but not misinformation.  And IAC there wasn't enough information at all to apply the Decision.  And I don't care what the guy's chops are, he choked big time on the the biggest stage and caused the USGA an enormous amount of embarrassment.

"Show me exactly what you did" would have resulted in a correct ruling and no (or at least a heck of a lot less) controversy.  

A Rules Official's blunder should not be the impetus for changing a rule.  If he had done his job properly we wouldn't even be having this thread.

[boil3rmak3r]

3 minutes ago, turtleback said:

I blame the RO for basing his ruling on that without probing at all.  And I am not even sure it was misinformation.  He didn't think he had moved the ball and he didn't ground his club, in the sense of behind the ball, which is what Dustin meant, in all likelihood, not the grounding when he was taking his practice swings.  So I will agree that there was miscommunication, but not misinformation.  And IAC there wasn't enough information at all to apply the Decision.  And I don't care what the guy's chops are, he choked big time on the the biggest stage and caused the USGA an enormous amount of embarrassment.

"Show me exactly what you did" would have resulted in a correct ruling and no (or at least a heck of a lot less) controversy.  

^This

It seems like DJ simply answered the question(s) asked of the RO.  The RO quickly deemed no penalty.  How the USGA could say the player gave misinformation and, therefore, rule 34-2 is not applicable is beyond me.  Should 34-2 simply be removed from the rule book?

In any case, I am fine with the current Ball at Rest Moved rule.

 

[Pete F]

Why would you penalize someone for something that they received no advantage from. If the ball moves and you replace it how could you gain a stroke over your opponents? Other than that being the "rule" what reason is there to have it. 

Golf and Sailboat racing both attract rulemakers for some reason.

I like sailing from one place to another better than around buoys, maybe I'll just play golf for fun too!

[Groucho Valentine]

DJ really bailed out the USGA with that whole penalty thing. My feeling has always been club to ball or club to ground behind the ball at address that should determine whether or not a penalty should be applied if the players ball moves. It doesn't appear Johnson did either. Johnson thankfully made the whole situation irrelevant to the tournament. 

In a similar situation on the green, i would like to see the rule simplified to just club or part of a players body to an unmarked ball. Intentional or not. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Groucho Valentine