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Ball at Rest Moved - How Would You Improve This Rule?


iacas
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http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-18

In light of Dustin Johnson's rules issue in winning the 116th U.S. Open, how would you change the rule to make it best?

Because currently, the rule says that you simply weigh the evidence and make the best possible decision. If it's really windy, and it's likely the wind moved the ball, there's no penalty. If you make a stroke in the proximity, and nothing else seems to have contributed, you are deemed to have caused the ball to move.

The old rule was basically "once you do something, almost anything that moves the ball is your responsibility." For example, if you addressed the ball and then a gust of wind moved the ball, you were penalized.

So the new rule is, IMO, better, but clearly not perfect. Where there was no grey area before, but players were penalized for actions that were NOT their own, now they aren't penalized but there's more of a grey area because people are asked to determine and make a judgment.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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I think the new Rule/Decision is pretty good...I'm not sure how you can do much better than "weight of evidence".  It's kind of the whole point: analyze all available information and make a decision.

(yes, I know this is a lame answer)

 

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2016's R18-2 accompanied by D18-2/0.5 is pretty good. We've come a long way since 2008.

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6 minutes ago, Asheville said:

2016's R18-2 accompanied by D18-2/0.5 is pretty good. We've come a long way since 2008.

I agree.

But a bunch of people are having heartache tonight about it, so I wanted to hear how they'd improve it.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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26 minutes ago, Asheville said:

2016's R18-2 accompanied by D18-2/0.5 is pretty good. We've come a long way since 2008.

Agree.  

 

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-18

In light of Dustin Johnson's rules issue in winning the 116th U.S. Open, how would you change the rule to make it best?

Because currently, the rule says that you simply weigh the evidence and make the best possible decision. If it's really windy, and it's likely the wind moved the ball, there's no penalty. If you make a stroke in the proximity, and nothing else seems to have contributed, you are deemed to have caused the ball to move.

The old rule was basically "once you do something, almost anything that moves the ball is your responsibility." For example, if you addressed the ball and then a gust of wind moved the ball, you were penalized.

So the new rule is, IMO, better, but clearly not perfect. Where there was no grey area before, but players were penalized for actions that were NOT their own, now they aren't penalized but there's more of a grey area because people are asked to determine and make a judgment.

I think that gray area can mean that a player gets penalized by one committee, while a week later he doesn't get penalized for the exact same act by a different committee.  There somehow needs to be a way to make it black and white.  The old rule was harsh, but it was also equitable.  The new rule may not always be equitable, and that is contrary to the general spirit and principles of the rules.

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Rick

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I think the Rule as it is today is fine.

In regards to the Dustin Johnson issue of today, how many players were penalized this week because of their ball moving on a green?

In the normal course of tournament golf on the tour...how many players would you think are penalized, on average, in other tournaments for the ball moving?

Edited by RickK

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The savvy player will not touch the grass or ground very close to the ball when taking practice swings. (Like some guy we all saw on TV this afternoon.) He'll be in no need of a "better" Rule. :-)

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Getting back to that gray area.  How do you quantify what may or may not cause the ball to move?  At Oakmont today, a light 10 mph breeze could have been the cause for a situation like DJ's, absolving the player of any fault, yet at the 9 hole course a few minutes from my house, a gale that will yank the flagsticks out of the hole won't move the ball on those slow greens.  

So how do you prevent human judgement, and the subsequent potential for human error, from coloring the results in future tournaments?  I don't have an answer that wouldn't require reverting to the previous harsh treatment - which I am not in favor of doing, by the way.

Rick

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The rule is fine as it stands in my book. My problem is changing the ruling he got on the course. If he gets a ruling on the course that goes against him, and it turns out to be wrong, he doesn't get to go back to that point and replay the round from there. He is stuck with whatever the results were. Once an official makes the ruling, right or wrong it should stand.

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8 minutes ago, Shooting29 said:

The rule is fine as it stands in my book. My problem is changing the ruling he got on the course. If he gets a ruling on the course that goes against him, and it turns out to be wrong, he doesn't get to go back to that point and replay the round from there. He is stuck with whatever the results were. Once an official makes the ruling, right or wrong it should stand.

The Committee has a duty to the field to get it right. That, in some cases like this one, can often only be done by reviewing the video. It seems harsh, I know, but isn't it better for the championship for the result to be the right one?

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14 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Getting back to that gray area.  How do you quantify what may or may not cause the ball to move?  At Oakmont today, a light 10 mph breeze could have been the cause for a situation like DJ's, absolving the player of any fault, yet at the 9 hole course a few minutes from my house, a gale that will yank the flagsticks out of the hole won't move the ball on those slow greens.  

So how do you prevent human judgement, and the subsequent potential for human error, from coloring the results in future tournaments?  I don't have an answer that wouldn't require reverting to the previous harsh treatment - which I am not in favor of doing, by the way.

Here's a thought: what if you allowed players to replace the ball on the green, without penalty, regardless of why it moves?  (maybe unless they INTENTIONALLY cause it to move)

They're already allowed to mark the ball and clean it, so it doesn't seem like they could use it to their advantage.  It would eliminate the gray area, without creating a loophole (other than permitting carelessness without penalty).

Personally, it seems a bit out of line with the Principles...but I'm just throwing it out there.

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1 minute ago, Hardspoon said:

Here's a thought: what if you allowed players to replace the ball on the green, without penalty, regardless of why it moves?  (maybe unless they INTENTIONALLY cause it to move)

They're already allowed to mark the ball and clean it, so it doesn't seem like they could use it to their advantage.  It would eliminate the gray area, without creating a loophole (other than permitting carelessness without penalty).

Personally, it seems a bit out of line with the Principles...but I'm just throwing it out there.

In all situations?

So if the ball is on a slope, and it moves after it came to rest with the golfer nowhere nearby, you replace it? What if you aren't sure whether it was at rest? Or where it was originally?

I'd caution against branching out into too many tangents.

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12 minutes ago, Asheville said:

The Committee has a duty to the field to get it right. That, in some cases like this one, can often only be done by reviewing the video. It seems harsh, I know, but isn't it better for the championship for the result to be the right one?

I think they made themselves look like fools. Did that make the championship better? 

I'll rephrase the question. If the rules official were to fail to give relief when it was warranted, and the committee later finds the official ruled in error, does the player get to replay that hole from the point the error was made? If not, why not? Wouldn't getting it right make for a better championship? 

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@Shooting29, please stick to the topic. It's fairly narrow.

How would you improve the rule, if you would?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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1 hour ago, Asheville said:

The Committee has a duty to the field to get it right. That, in some cases like this one, can often only be done by reviewing the video. It seems harsh, I know, but isn't it better for the championship for the result to be the right one?

The committee has a duty to get it right, but it should also reach an unambiguous decision in a timely fashion.

In this particular case, I feel that the USGA made the right call in assessing a penalty stroke. However, they either lacked discretion in the way they handled the possible infraction with Dustin, the competitors, and the media, or they didn't have an adequate system in place to resolve the situation without putting the outcome of the tournament in jeopardy.

The committee wanted to withhold assessing a penalty until Dustin had a chance to see what they were seeing on the video; that's fine. If the only way for him to review the video was from the clubhouse at the end of his round, then they shouldn't have announced it to the world when he was leading the tournament with 6-7 holes to play. Or, the USGA could have sent a rules official with an iPad to meet Dustin once his pairing had a wait on the tee, and then come to a ruling right there (though there would have to be an established protocol in those circumstances; a qualifier on Thursday deserves the same opportunity to look at the video as the leader on Sunday).

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

@Shooting29, please stick to the topic. It's fairly narrow.

How would you improve the rule, if you would?

Add "The decision of the Rules Official on site is final. If no decision is made by the Rules Official at the time of the possible infraction there is no infraction!"

It's called accountability... "Officials" should held as accountable as competitors.

Edited by CR McDivot

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2 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Add "The decision of the Rules Official on site is final. If no decision is made by the Rules Official at the time of the possible infraction there is no infraction!"

It's called accountability... "Officials" should held as accountable as competitors.

Agreed. If we aren't going to hold to the decisions made during the course of play, how much weight, if any, can the players give to the officials' decisions?  

I agree with Shooting29 that if the Committee is allowed to change the on-the-course ruling in some instances in the name of "getting it right," it stands to reason that this should apply across the board and is relevant to the conversation. I think the answer is that the ruling on the field stands. If they want to take an officials' time out and reveiw the video, fine. But you can't change the decision after the 4th quarter expires knowing that the original decision factored into the players strategy of play thereafter. If you are asking for our opinions on the matter, there is mine. Take it or leave it. 

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