Lost ball -- probably played by another

[Fourputt]

48 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I have a feeling you have to take into account the surrounding area of where the ball should be, if there are bushes/rocks/sprinkler heads/trees/etc that could reasonably have caused the ball to end up somewhere other than the expected spot then you can no longer be reasonable certain. However, if it's a wide open area type situation, as well as in the OP situation where there is a ball that is not yours in that location it's  very reasonable to assume that one of the other players hit your ball.

It may be reasonable, but it doesn't meet the requirement of virtual certainty.  His ball was out of his sight before it came to rest.  That alone would cancel any virtual certainty unless there were other witnesses that saw the ball come to rest.  

I've seen a ball hit a tree on a drive, then not be found and the player "assumed" that a guy he saw on the parallel hole took it, so he dropped and played from there.  I crossed the fairway to play my second shot and found his original ball in the rough almost 70 yards from the tree that he hit.  His idea of virtual certainty was not even close to reality.

[Jeremie Boop]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

It may be reasonable, but it doesn't meet the requirement of virtual certainty.  His ball was out of his sight before it came to rest.  That alone would cancel any virtual certainty unless there were other witnesses that saw the ball come to rest.  

I've seen a ball hit a tree on a drive, then not be found and the player "assumed" that a guy he saw on the parallel hole took it, so he dropped and played from there.  I crossed the fairway to play my second shot and found his original ball in the rough almost 70 yards from the tree that he hit.  His idea of virtual certainty was not even close to reality.

As I stated, if there are trees/rocks/etc in the area the ball was traveling then that negates VC. If it was traveling towards an open area, especially one that he's hit to multiple times in the past, that's a completely different scenario.

[Rulesman]

3 hours ago, tdiii said:

 

 

(where I busted a 304 yard drive ). 

Amazing, given the the pros average 289.

[tdiii]

33 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Amazing, given the the pros average 289.

I'm guessing the average tour pro would have it it 350 then.  Thank goodness for downhill par 4s. 

DJ averages 310 off the tee but his longest drive is 400.  My 240/300 split doesn't look so bad does it? 

 

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

As I stated, if there are trees/rocks/etc in the area the ball was traveling then that negates VC. If it was traveling towards an open area, especially one that he's hit to multiple times in the past, that's a completely different scenario.

I'm good with there not being virtual certainty.  There's a couple of small trees and a few big rocks in the area between the two fairways.  It certainly is possible the other group didn't play my ball -- although very likely someone did.  The rules official is the club pro back at the clubhouse so there's no real way to get a ruling at the time in what are supposed to be friendly matches.  I think my opponent would have given me the drop if I asked, but I just took it straight back to the tee. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by tdiii

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

As I stated, if there are trees/rocks/etc in the area the ball was traveling then that negates VC. If it was traveling towards an open area, especially one that he's hit to multiple times in the past, that's a completely different scenario.

I may have confused my answer.  The simple fact that the ball went out of sight is enough to cancel virtual certainty in all but the most specific cases where is no possible way that the ball could be lost by any other means.  If there is a possibility, however slight, that the ball was not moved by an outside agency, then the ball is lost.  This is a case where even 99% certainty might not be enough.  To make a definite ruling, I would have to be there and see the area and investigate the entire situation.  This is not any kind of an automatic black and white ruling.

[Wansteadimp]

To play Devil's Advocate, as you're playing a match and your opponents think that the ball was hit by a member of the other group, then they can waive the rule and allow you to drop a ball as near as possible to the point you believe it finished. Obviously you can't agree this beforehand.

Now where that leaves you regarding posting for handicap I have no clue, as we don't post matchplay rounds for handicap in the UK.

If they don't waive the rule then you proceeded correctly.

[Rulesman]

Just now, Wansteadimp said:

 Obviously you can't agree this beforehand.

.

Nor can it be agreed at the time.

[tdiii]

Just now, Wansteadimp said:

To play Devil's Advocate, as you're playing a match and your opponents think that the ball was hit by a member of the other group, then they can waive the rule and allow you to drop a ball as near as possible to the point you believe it finished. Obviously you can't agree this beforehand.

Now where that leaves you regarding posting for handicap I have no clue, as we don't post matchplay rounds for handicap in the UK.

If they don't waive the rule then you proceeded correctly.

The rule was not expressly waived -- I think if I'd asked it would have been but I did not.  I posted the 6 on the hole. 

[Rulesman]

1 minute ago, tdiii said:

The rule was not expressly waived -- I think if I'd asked it would have been but I did not.  I posted the 6 on the hole. 

If you had asked and they had agreed you would all have been DQd

[tdiii]

Just now, Rulesman said:

If you had asked and they had agreed you would all have been DQd

In a matchplay situation? 

[Fourputt]

27 minutes ago, tdiii said:

In a matchplay situation? 

If you just agreed to ignore the rule, then all are disqualified.

If all of you honestly believed that relief was warranted, meaning that you felt that your sense of virtual certainty was satisfied, then no DQ, even if a later discussion indicates that your decision may have been wrong. 

The other possibility was for you to proceed as you felt right and your opponents could could lodge a claim if they didn't agree.  If the committee upholds their claim then you still just lose the hole.  If the committee accepts your play, then maybe you win or halve the hole (we don't know that because that scenario never was played out).  If you play many matches, it pays to read Rule 2-5.

Quote

2-5. Doubt as to Procedure; Disputes and Claims

In match play, if a doubt or dispute arises between the players, a player may make a claim. If no duly authorized representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay. The Committee may consider a claim only if it has been made in a timely manner and if the player making the claim has notified his opponent at the time (i) that he is making a claim or wants a ruling and (ii) of the facts upon which the claim or ruling is to be based.

A claim is considered to have been made in a timely manner if, upon discovery of circumstances giving rise to a claim, the player makes his claim (i) before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground, or (ii) in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green, or (iii) when the circumstances giving rise to the claim are discovered after all the players in the match have left theputting green of the final hole, before the result of the match has been officially announced.

A claim relating to a prior hole in the match may only be considered by the Committee if it is based on facts previously unknown to the player making the claim and he had been given wrong information (Rules 6-2a or9) by an opponent. Such a claim must be made in a timely manner.

Once the result of the match has been officially announced, a claim may not be considered by theCommittee, unless it is satisfied that (i) the claim is based on facts which were previously unknown to the player making the claim at the time the result was officially announced, (ii) the player making the claim had been given wrong information by an opponent and (iii) the opponent knew he was giving wrong information. There is no time limit on considering such a claim.

Note 1: A player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponent provided there is no agreement by the sides to waive a Rule (Rule 1-3).

 

[Wansteadimp]

42 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

If you had asked and they had agreed you would all have been DQd

So the only way it can happen is if the opposition offer the possibility and then you accept?

 

edit Okay I'm getting confused, you have to have already broken a rule then the opposition can ignore the breach, here no rule has been breached (yet).

Edited June 23, 2016 by Wansteadimp

[bkuehn1952]

2 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

...you have to have already broken a rule then the opposition can ignore the breach, here no rule has been breached (yet).

I'll join your confusion.  One scenario would be for @tdiii to state that he is virtually certain one of the other match's players took his ball.  Since an outside agency took the ball, he would then proceed to drop without penalty in the area from where he felt his original ball had been taken by the outside agency.

At this point, the other side could choose to accept the situation or make a claim (which likely would be upheld).  No one waived a Rule.  No prior agreement was made.

Personally, I feel @tdiii did the proper thing in going back rather than force the other side to make a claim.

[Buckeyebowman]

9 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

No, your only option was the one you took (short of actually wrestling the guys in the other group to get a peek at your ball :)).  

In casual rounds on that type of course (adjacent fairways, light rough) I would just drop and play on, but in a competition you are, unfortunately, stuck with replaying from the tee.

Yup, that's it! You were in a match and had no other choice.

I've been in that situation many times. A few times I've seen guys stop, pick up my ball, look at it, stick it in their pocket and drive on! They don't even bother to look around to see if anyone is playing the adjacent hole! One time I had to chase a guy down and ask him if he found a Titleist whatever with 2 black dots on either side of the number in the tree line. He gave it up, but was muttering and giving me looks like I was a mugger!

We went and dropped as close to where we could figure the ball had ended up. This was a casual round.

[Rulesman]

9 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

So the only way it can happen is if the opposition offer the possibility and then you accept?

 

edit Okay I'm getting confused, you have to have already broken a rule then the opposition can ignore the breach, here no rule has been breached (yet).

If you decide to simply drop and play another ball when you have no evidence that it was taken by another player, then you have breached the rule.

If you tell your opponents that is what you are going to do and they concur

or if you ask them and they agree with what you intend to do

or if they suggest that you take that action and you agree 

then you have agreed to waive a rule. No action is required.

If you simply take the action and your opponents say they know it is a breach but they will ignore it, You and they have agreed to waive a rule.

If you simply take the action and your opponents make no comment there is no problem.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Rulesman

[Dan42nepa]

I have been on the other end of that situation and had someone drive up to my friend and I and ask if we took an orange ball out of the fairway. The question was so rediculous I almost didnt answer then i started to take offense as he was basically accusing  us of stealing. I told him i had no interest in his top flite and sort of reacted like the two on the green did. I sort of side with them as their reaction was similar to mine.

[Martyn W]

19 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

So the only way it can happen is if the opposition offer the possibility and then you accept?

I'll try to simplify:

There is a 1-3 breach if two things occur

1. Both sides are aware that a Rule has been breached

2. Both sides agree to not apply the penalty

It can easily happen that there are Rules breaches left and right due to the ignorance of the players in which case 1-3 has not been breached.

[Lihu]

On 6/23/2016 at 10:26 AM, tdiii said:

Further facts:  We did not see my ball come to rest, so did not affirmatively see someone else hit my ball.  Just in case that was not crystal clear. I hadn't bothered to hit a provisional because the ball was hit to an area where one would always find it.

Wrestling the guys on the green was an option, but I'm a lover not a fighter. 

[Yes, if I'm playing a match among my buddies, I think we would all allow a drop without penalty even if money was on the line.]

I've lost balls this way, so now I play used Titlist Pro-V1x and put a huge and ugly looking "L" in black sharpie. No balls lost this way lately.

A bit ugly looking "T" would probably do the trick, or you do what your brother did.