In the bunker or not?

[MacDutch]

I got two examples I don't know how to handle.

Ball is in a rabbit hole, lets say 10 inch inside. Rabbit hole starts in a bunker, but 10 inch inward, the ball is not on bunkersand. If you go vertically up, you are on the gras. Are you allowed to drop without penalty on the grass?

Something alike: Ball is deeply plugged inside the bunkerwall. Lets say 5 inch inside. If you go vertically up, you are on the rough. If you go vertically down you go into the ground, not into the bunker. Are you allowed to take an unplayable and drop outside the bunker with one penaltystroke?

 

[iacas]

You're not in either bunker if you're outside the margin of the bunker.

FWIW bunkers extend downward only. So if your ball is in a tree over a bunker it is not in the bunker.

[Dormie1360]

2 hours ago, MacDutch said:

I got two examples I don't know how to handle.

Ball is in a rabbit hole, lets say 10 inch inside. Rabbit hole starts in a bunker, but 10 inch inward, the ball is not on bunkersand. If you go vertically up, you are on the gras. Are you allowed to drop without penalty on the grass?

Something alike: Ball is deeply plugged inside the bunkerwall. Lets say 5 inch inside. If you go vertically up, you are on the rough. If you go vertically down you go into the ground, not into the bunker. Are you allowed to take an unplayable and drop outside the bunker with one penaltystroke?

 

 

This is my understanding.

In your first example, assuming you know the position of the ball, R25-1 applies.  If the nearest point of relief is in the bunker, the ball is in the bunker and R25-1b(ii) applies.  If the nearest point of relief is through the green, R25-1b(i) applies.  To determine the nearest point of relief you include vertical distance.  See D25-1b/25.

In your second example, if the ball is embedded, it's deemed to be in the bunker.  An embedded ball lies on the part of the course where it entered the ground.  See D13/4

[MacDutch]

51 minutes ago, Dormie1360 said:

 

This is my understanding.

In your first example, assuming you know the position of the ball, R25-1 applies.  If the nearest point of relief is in the bunker, the ball is in the bunker and R25-1b(ii) applies.  If the nearest point of relief is through the green, R25-1b(i) applies.  To determine the nearest point of relief you include vertical distance.  See D25-1b/25.

In your second example, if the ball is embedded, it's deemed to be in the bunker.  An embedded ball lies on the part of the course where it entered the ground.  See D13/4

 

Thanks, I read the decisions you reffered to. Nearest point of relief is in the first example not what defines if a ball is in the bunker. It depends on where the ball itself is. According to the decision it was not in the bunker.

[bkuehn1952]

3 hours ago, MacDutch said:

...Ball is deeply plugged inside the bunkerwall. Lets say 5 inch inside. If you go vertically up, you are on the rough. If you go vertically down you go into the ground, not into the bunker. Are you allowed to take an unplayable and drop outside the bunker with one penaltystroke?

 

In this example, is the surface of the "bunker wall" stacked sod, grass or sand?  I think some of the responses might change depending on composition of the "bunker wall."

[MacDutch]

47 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

In this example, is the surface of the "bunker wall" stacked sod, grass or sand?  I think some of the responses might change depending on composition of the "bunker wall."

I think stacked sod. Could be some grass on it, but just some blades of grass. Definitly no bunkersand.

[bkuehn1952]

2 hours ago, MacDutch said:

I think stacked sod. Could be some grass on it, but just some blades of grass. Definitly no bunkersand.

In that case, I think the ball would be considered outside the bunker and allow one to take the unplayable drop behind the bunker.  The Decision cited seems to relate to embedding in a sand faced bunker (think of those steep faced Augusta National bunkers).  If a ball entered the sand and drilled in far enough laterally to have turf above its position, the fact that it entered sand controls the situation.  With a sod face, there is no sand; it is like plugging in an area that is not closely mown.

Warning - I often do not know what I am talking about!

[MacDutch]

3 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Warning - I often do not know what I am talking about!

In that case lets wait for the rules official 

[Martyn W]

On 6/27/2016 at 11:49 AM, MacDutch said:

I think stacked sod. Could be some grass on it, but just some blades of grass. Definitly no bunkersand.

From the definition:

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. 

[MacDutch]

So, in the bunker. It was plugged in the lip, not covered with grass

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

So, in the bunker. It was plugged in the lip, not covered with grass

Didn't you say it was stacked sod?

[MacDutch]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

Didn't you say it was stacked sod?

Yes I did. Sorry, my mistake, just used google translate to discover that is grass.  I tought it ment something like a hard muddy wall. I also said almost no grass, just some blades. So definitely not grass covered.

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

Yes I did. Sorry, my mistake, just used google translate to discover that is grass.  I tought it ment something like a hard muddy wall. I also said almost no grass, just some blades. So definitely not grass covered.

Stacked sod does not need to be grassed.

[MacDutch]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

Stacked sod does not need to be grassed.

Now I am even more confused. It was a wall/bunkerlip not the same kind of sand as in the bunker, almost no grass on it. The wall was like muddy, dark, thick sand. Maybe you would call it stacked sod. But I don't know what stacked sod is. Google translate said stacked sod is covered with grass, when translated to Dutch.

Edited June 28, 2016 by MacDutch

[iacas]

Look at these: https://goo.gl/images/ZwK0ss

[MacDutch]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

Look at these: https://goo.gl/images/ZwK0ss

No, not like that. Got it now, it was not stacked. 

Looks to me a bunkerlip/wall is only in the bunker, when the lip/wall is made of the same sand as the bunker itself.

[Rulesman]

10 hours ago, MacDutch said:

No, not like that. Got it now, it was not stacked. 

Looks to me a bunkerlip/wall is only in the bunker, when the lip/wall is made of the same sand as the bunker itself.

Or just plain soil or earth.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 6/29/2016 at 2:07 PM, Rulesman said:

Or just plain soil or earth.

Yep. Don't know how steep the faces of your bunkers are, or how well maintained. It could be that sand has slipped down the wall exposing bare dirt. Sucks for you. Maybe complain to the greens committee if there is one.