Returning to play a provisional ball

[Wansteadimp]

So in our Club Championship yesterday we had an interesting ruling.

A player hit a cut wasn't sure he would find it so played a provisional which didn't go as far as his original ball. He then went and looked for his original ball, people were waiting on the tee so he went back and hit his provisional. After this had happened but within the 5 minute search period a group playing a parallel hole found his original ball. He wasn't sure how to proceed so completed the hole with both balls (6 with the provisional, 4 with the original)and turned it over to the Committee.

My initial thought was that he would have to use the score from the provisional as the situation is similar to the criteria (ii) for playing a provisional: -

27-2. Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must:

(i)

announce to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball; and

(ii)

play the provisional ball before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

However, we then found a decision which covered the situation exactly: -

27-2b/3

 

Original Ball Is Beyond Provisional Ball; Player Searches Briefly for Original Ball, Plays Provisional Ball and Then Finds Original Ball

Q.A player's provisional ball comes to rest short of where the original ball is likely to be. After a two-minute search for the original ball, the player goes back, plays a second stroke with the provisional ball and then his original ball is found within the five-minute time limit. What is the ruling?

A.The player must continue play with the original ball. Play of a provisional ball does not render the original ball lost until it has been played from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (Rule 27-2b).

So making the ruling became easy, the 4 with the original ball was the one to count.

However, it seems to me that the decision is inconsistent with 27-2a(ii), anyone agree or can explain the difference?

[Martyn W]

2 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

However, it seems to me that the decision is inconsistent with 27-2a(ii), anyone agree or can explain the difference?

The difference is, in the context of 27-2a(ii), it means put the provisional into play. Once it is in play you can go forward to search for the original.

[Grinde6]

27-2a(ii) is meaning that you have to play a provisional ball while your still on the teeing ground.  Once you hit, and you think it might be lost or whatever, your playing partners then all tee off and then you play your provisional ball...that's what it means by "play the provisional ball before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball".

[cnl390]

When teeing off the drive slices and all three playing partners believe the ball went into a ditch, presumably out of bounds.  A provisional is hit, then the original ball is found in bounds.  Which ball is played?

[Fourputt]

26 minutes ago, cnl390 said:

When teeing off the drive slices and all three playing partners believe the ball went into a ditch, presumably out of bounds.  A provisional is hit, then the original ball is found in bounds.  Which ball is played?

The original ball is in play.  When the original ball is found in bounds, it is always the ball in play unless the player has taken action in a way that the rules deem it lost.  That would be:  if he plays a second ball under stroke and distance, or if he plays his provisional ball from a point at or beyond where the original ball is thought to be.  

In those cases, it doesn't matter if he later finds the original ball, because the action he took made the second ball the ball in play.

[Shindig]

In addition to what Rick said, there's a reason the rules let you advance the provisional until you're at the spot where your original is thought to be:  just like the provisional itself, it's meant to speed up play.  

[Wansteadimp]

20 hours ago, Shindig said:

In addition to what Rick said, there's a reason the rules let you advance the provisional until you're at the spot where your original is thought to be:  just like the provisional itself, it's meant to speed up play.  

Yes, I understand this but why does the decision let you go forward of where you have hit your provisional ball, search for your original ball, go back to the provisional hit it then go to your original ball when its found and hit it and the original be the ball in play.

That's not speeding up play, is it?

[Rulesman]

21 minutes ago, Wansteadimp said:

Yes, I understand this but why does the decision let you go forward of where you have hit your provisional ball, search for your original ball, go back to the provisional hit it then go to your original ball when its found and hit it and the original be the ball in play.

That's not speeding up play, is it?

No. And a player doing that may be penalised for undue delay.

[Groucho Valentine]

On July 11, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Grinde6 said:

27-2a(ii) is meaning that you have to play a provisional ball while your still on the teeing ground.  Once you hit, and you think it might be lost or whatever, your playing partners then all tee off and then you play your provisional ball...that's what it means by "play the provisional ball before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball".

Yeah, i think he has it. 

I did that once in a tournament where i hit a ball just off the fairway that ended up in a patch of thick rough. I never found the ball and returned to hit another. I declared it a provisional but learned from the official that i can only declare a provisional while still at the area of the previous shot. So i had to proceed like i was lost ball. On the way up to the second ball i found the first one. It was an important lesson to play a provisional whenever you have a doubt. 

As far as OB and competition play goes, i think as a rule you should always declare your second ball a provisional, regardless if you see your first land OB. In casual play, just take it and move on, but for competition calling that second ball a provisional instead of a replay can be to the players advantage. 

[Fourputt]

38 minutes ago, Wansteadimp said:

Yes, I understand this but why does the decision let you go forward of where you have hit your provisional ball, search for your original ball, go back to the provisional hit it then go to your original ball when its found and hit it and the original be the ball in play.

That's not speeding up play, is it?

So why would you do that?  The only reason I can think of for a player to do that is if he doesn't know how Rule 27-2 works.  As usual the fault isn't with the rule but with the lack of knowledge of some players.

[Grinde6]

3 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Yeah, i think he has it. 

I did that once in a tournament where i hit a ball just off the fairway that ended up in a patch of thick rough. I never found the ball and returned to hit another. I declared it a provisional but learned from the official that i can only declare a provisional while still at the area of the previous shot. So i had to proceed like i was lost ball. On the way up to the second ball i found the first one. It was an important lesson to play a provisional whenever you have a doubt. 

As far as OB and competition play goes, i think as a rule you should always declare your second ball a provisional, regardless if you see your first land OB. In casual play, just take it and move on, but for competition calling that second ball a provisional instead of a replay can be to the players advantage. 

For sure!  If I am playing a tourney or a casual round and I think there is any chance my ball is gone, or in some thick grass where I wont be able to find it, I always play a provisional.  Provisional balls are there to help the player and to keep the pace of play up as well.  This is why I always carry balls with different numbers in my bag and marked and ready to go.  I will usually play the lower numbered ball as my normal ball, and then the higher numbered ball is there for Provisional reasons.  And YES, be sure you declare the 2nd one as a Provisional ball to your playing partners before you play it and show them/tell them the make and number so they know otherwise if you don't, the 2nd one you hit could be considered your ball that is in play and you just hit your 3rd from the tee!

[Groucho Valentine]

4 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

For sure!  If I am playing a tourney or a casual round and I think there is any chance my ball is gone, or in some thick grass where I wont be able to find it, I always play a provisional.  Provisional balls are there to help the player and to keep the pace of play up as well.  This is why I always carry balls with different numbers in my bag and marked and ready to go.  I will usually play the lower numbered ball as my normal ball, and then the higher numbered ball is there for Provisional reasons.  And YES, be sure you declare the 2nd one as a Provisional ball to your playing partners before you play it and show them/tell them the make and number so they know otherwise if you don't, the 2nd one you hit could be considered your ball that is in play and you just hit your 3rd from the tee!

Yup. Absolutely. 

[DaveP043]

36 minutes ago, Grinde6 said:

and show them/tell them the make and number so they know otherwise if you don't, the 2nd one you hit could be considered your ball that is in play and you just hit your 3rd from the tee!

There's no doubt that this is the best way to do things, to avoid misunderstandings and hard feelings, but  the Rules don't require you to do this.  Its up to you to identify your ball, and you have to be able to tell the original from the provisional, but you don't have to tell your Opponent of Fellow Competitor which is which.  If you find both of them, and you can't tell which is which, you can choose which one to play, and treat it as your provisional. (Decision 27/11)

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

 

As far as OB and competition play goes, i think as a rule you should always declare your second ball a provisional, regardless if you see your first land OB. 

If you know your first is not in trouble you may not declare the second to be a provisional. As soon as you hit it it is the ball in play and the first is dead.

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

If you know your first is not in trouble you may not declare the second to be a provisional. As soon as you hit it it is the ball in play and the first is dead.

I believe @Groucho Valentine meant that declaring the second shot to be a provisional (rather than simply putting it into play) was a good idea, even when it seemed almost certain that the first was OB, just in case it somehow ended up being in play.  I didn't take his meaning to suggest hitting a provisional without at least the potential for OB or lost ball.

[Groucho Valentine]

50 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

If you know your first is not in trouble you may not declare the second to be a provisional. As soon as you hit it it is the ball in play and the first is dead.

You can declare a provisional for just about any reason you want as long as you didn't hit the orignal in a hazard. It doesn't cost the player anything. 

39 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I believe @Groucho Valentine meant that declaring the second shot to be a provisional (rather than simply putting it into play) was a good idea, even when it seemed almost certain that the first was OB, just in case it somehow ended up being in play.  I didn't take his meaning to suggest hitting a provisional without at least the potential for OB or lost ball.

RIght. You never know. 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Groucho Valentine

[Martyn W]

8 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

You can declare a provisional for just about any reason you want as long as you didn't hit the orignal in a hazard. It doesn't cost the player anything. 

48 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Not exactly. 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must:

(i)

announce to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball; and

(ii)

play the provisional ball before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If a player fails to meet the above requirements prior to playing another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

[Grinde6]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

There's no doubt that this is the best way to do things, to avoid misunderstandings and hard feelings, but  the Rules don't require you to do this.  Its up to you to identify your ball, and you have to be able to tell the original from the provisional, but you don't have to tell your Opponent of Fellow Competitor which is which.  If you find both of them, and you can't tell which is which, you can choose which one to play, and treat it as your provisional. (Decision 27/11)

Yep, but that is the exact reason I declare to them that it is a provisional ball and what number I am hitting so that there is no confusion if both are found.  I would never want to be in the situation where I find both but cannot tell them apart so I basically just gave away 2 strokes for being a dummy...

3 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

Not exactly. 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must:

(i)

announce to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball; and

(ii)

play the provisional ball before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If a player fails to meet the above requirements prior to playing another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

The section you made red...the only requirements it is talking about is that you must declare its a provisional and play the provisional before you go searching for the original.  You can play a provisional for just about any reason besides knowing that it is in a hazard.  Any ball hit into the rough may not be found, a provisional can be played, etc...