When is someone a scratch golfer?

[cutchemist42]

Starting to really read a lot about course and slope ratings a lot more, and then thought of how it might relate to someone who is declared a scratch golfer. Lets say you only had 1 course to play with a hard difficulty. Let's say the course rating was 77/147 and it was the only set of tees to play. Would someone who can only play this course and averages 79/80 still be considered a scratch golfer? What about the reverse of that? One course to play and lets say 65/109. Person averages 72 on that course, are they a scratch golfer?

Am I thinking about the term in a wrong way?

[NJpatbee]

I have always thought of a scratch golfer as someone with a zero handicap index.  And yes, you could be a scratch golfer shooting mid-high 70's on an extremely difficult course such as the 77/147 you mentioned.

It will be interesting to see if others here have a different definition of "scratch".

[cutchemist42]

I also dont keep a handicap, so maybe I need more understanding....Im just wondering what HI those two scenarios might carry? 

 

FWIW, I pulled this off of Golf Ontario.

Quote

Scratch Golfer - An amateur player who plays to the standard of the stroke play qualifiers competing in the United States Amateur Championship/Canadian Amateur. The male scratch golfer hits his tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots. The female scratch golfer can hit her tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots.

Course Rating - An evaluation of the overall difficulty of the golf course under normal course and weather conditions for the scratch golfer. This figure is equal to the average of the better half of a scratch golfers scores.

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by cutchemist42

[Golfingdad]

31 minutes ago, NJpatbee said:

I have always thought of a scratch golfer as someone with a zero handicap index.  And yes, you could be a scratch golfer shooting mid-high 70's on an extremely difficult course such as the 77/147 you mentioned.

It will be interesting to see if others here have a different definition of "scratch".

It's such a vague term that doesn't really mean anything ... because, after all, if you are good enough to be "scratch" then you are either a pro or you have a handicap so you can just say what it is.  If I was to magically drop a few points off my handicap and somebody asked me what it is, I'm not going to say "scratch," I'm going to say "my handicap is currently 1.x."

But if you make me define it, then my definition would be anybody who hovers under 1.  If I look at a few months worth of revisions and they're all under 2 and several are under 1, maybe even with a 0 or plus thrown in there, then I'd call that guy "scratch."

So to answer the OP, definitely the first guy would be scratch, but the guy who averages 72 on a 65/109 course is most definitely not scratch.  That second guy would likely have a higher handicap than me.

[No Mulligans]

35 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

I also dont keep a handicap, so maybe I need more understanding....Im just wondering what HI those two scenarios might carry? 

 

FWIW, I pulled this off of Golf Ontario.

  Quote

Scratch Golfer - An amateur player who plays to the standard of the stroke play qualifiers competing in the United States Amateur Championship/Canadian Amateur. The male scratch golfer hits his tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots. The female scratch golfer can hit her tee shots an average of 210 yards and can reach a 400-yard hole in two shots.

Course Rating - An evaluation of the overall difficulty of the golf course under normal course and weather conditions for the scratch golfer. This figure is equal to the average of the better half of a scratch golfers scores.

That definition regarding tee shot distance is used as a benchmark to calculate Course Ratings.  The biggest factor in a course rating is distance.  However, my impression of the term scratch golfer is simple someone that maintains a HI of around 0, plus or minus a couple of strokes (basically the same as what @Golfingdad said).  However, if you can't average 250 yards or more off the tee it is going to be hard to become a scratch golfer because of the way courses are rated.

A lot of high handicappers can also drive the ball 250 yards but don't have the consistency to be low handicappers.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, cutchemist42 said:

Starting to really read a lot about course and slope ratings a lot more, and then thought of how it might relate to someone who is declared a scratch golfer. Lets say you only had 1 course to play with a hard difficulty. Let's say the course rating was 77/147 and it was the only set of tees to play. Would someone who can only play this course and averages 79/80 still be considered a scratch golfer? What about the reverse of that? One course to play and lets say 65/109. Person averages 72 on that course, are they a scratch golfer?

Am I thinking about the term in a wrong way?

In the context of Course Rating in the USGA system, you found the correct information in post #3.  Remember, this is a hypothetical player used as a model when rating courses.

The important bit, in terms of a individual player's scoring, is:

Quote

This figure (the course rating) is equal to the average of the better half of a scratch golfers scores.

So in your first example, a guy who averages 79 or 80 on a course with a rating of 77 is probably right around scratch.  The average of  the better half of his scores will be below his overall average, typically by a couple of strokes.  In the second example, a guy averaging 72 on a course with a rating of 65 is almost certainly not scratch, more likely a 3 to 5 handicap.

[TourSpoon]

A person averaging 72 on a par 65 would most likely round to 7 index. It's (72-65) x 113/109.  This is a relatively easy course and has a corresponding slope easier than average (113). 

A person averaging 79.5 on the other course would be a lot closer to scratch at almost a 2.   (79.5-77) x 113/147

The second scenario shows a highly skilled golfer that is doing very well to navigate a really tough track. 

Scratch is a "0" handicap index. 

In generalities, most amateurs would consider a 2 a scratch as sometimes they refer to anyone with such talent as a scratch. I can tell you that any 2 capper wishes they were scratch. It's close but no cigar. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by TourSpoon
clarification

[disco111]

 

When is someone a scratch golfer?

 

When their balls are itchy......

[Golfingdad]

22 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

A person averaging 72 on a par 65 would most likely round to 7 index. It's (72-65) x 113/109.  This is a relatively easy course and has a corresponding slope easier than average (113). 

A person averaging 79.5 on the other course would be a lot closer to scratch at almost a 2.   (79.5-77) x 113/147

The second scenario shows a highly skilled golfer that is doing very well to navigate a really tough track. 

Scratch is a "0" handicap index. 

In generalities, most amateurs would consider a 2 a scratch as sometimes they refer to anyone with such talent as a scratch. I can tell you that any 2 capper wishes they were scratch. It's close but no cigar. 

You're forgetting that the handicaps throw out the worst ten.  So your true average is always going to be a few strokes higher than your handicap - unless you shoot the same score all the time.  Using me as an example - my handicap is 4.9 at the moment but if it was calculated using all 20 differentials, it would be 6.7.

79.5 guy would almost certainly be very close to a zero and 72 guy would likely be closer to a 5. :)

[WUTiger]

The official definition involves ability for male to hit 250 .. reach 470 in 2, or female to hit 210 and hit 400 yd. hole in 2.

Informally, people probably view it more like GD:

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

... But if you make me define it, then my definition would be anybody who hovers under 1.  If I look at a few months worth of revisions and they're all under 2 and several are under 1, maybe even with a 0 or plus thrown in there, then I'd call that guy "scratch."

Similarly, various club pros have told me that a scratch golfer has a 2 HDCP or less.

The USGA 2016 events site doesn't talk about scratch golfers, but it did specify max HI for amateurs entering its high-level tournaments:

* US Open = 1.4
* US Women's Open = 2.4
* US Amateur = 2.4
* US Women's Amateur = 5.4
* US Senior Amateur = 7.4
* US Women's Amateur = 18.4

[cutchemist42]

So as I understand it, your handicap should not be a number you shoot better than quite a few times. From the USGA.

Quote

This ratio tells us playing to a handicap happens less than half of the time. Including all of the handicap formula, the resulting probability is that playing to your handicap happens only once out of four to five rounds.

So a scratch golfer with a HI of 0 isnt someone who shoots par everytime but maybe 25% of the time. Or is a scratch golfer someone who averages out to par but with a HI of +1 or +2?

[No Mulligans]

9 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

So as I understand it, your handicap should not be a number you shoot better than quite a few times. From the USGA.

So a scratch golfer with a HI of 0 isnt someone who shoots par everytime but maybe 25% of the time. Or is a scratch golfer someone who averages out to par but with a HI of +1 or +2?

To calculate USGA handicap you use the average of the best 10 of your last 20 round differentials.  Approximately 25% of the rounds will be at or below ones handicap. (Ignoring the bonus for excellence as it has negligible affect for a scratch player).

A scratch player probably won't have that much variance between their rounds, you could expect all their rounds to be pretty close to their HI.

[David in FL]

Zero handicap index.  I'll even go so far as to accept 0.x.  

[MrFlipper]

Interesting to me that the scratch at the course rated 65 is probably breaking par often, the scratch at the course rated 77 maybe never has. Two entirely different skill sets.

[David in FL]

1 minute ago, MrFlipper said:

Interesting to me that the scratch at the course rated 65 is probably breaking par often, the scratch at the course rated 77 maybe never has. Two entirely different skill sets.

Not at all.  The same skill set, just achieving a different gross number due to the  relative difference in difficulty of the 2 courses.  The same golfer would expect both results.

[kpaulhus]

I have shot 67 that was a -0.4 differential and a 73 that is a -0.1 differential

6 shots difference but way harder course the second time around.

[No Mulligans]

7 minutes ago, MrFlipper said:

Interesting to me that the scratch at the course rated 65 is probably breaking par often, the scratch at the course rated 77 maybe never has. Two entirely different skill sets.

Not necessarily two different skill sets.  If you have a par 70 course with a rating of 65, it is a shorter than average course.  There are probably some par 5's that scratch golfers are going to reach or get real close in 2 and/or par 4's that a scratch golfer is going to reach or get real close in one.  Those holes are expected to be birdied by a scratch golfer.  That is why the course would have a low course rating.

[GolfLug]

15 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Not at all.  The same skill set, just achieving a different gross number due to the  relative difference in difficulty of the 2 courses.  The same golfer would expect both results.

Sure it is. Par (we are assuming 72) at 65 rated course is a differential of 7 and at 77 is a differential of -5. 12 shots difference. Significantly different.