Posting a score for hdcp listening to music

[drmevo]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

The rule says:-  "the player must not use any artificial device" 

The player is not using the device. Someone else is.

So in the case of a group, say one guy says "Hey, I'm going to throw some tunes on, OK?" to which everyone else replies, "Sure, sounds good." You're saying only the guy who put the music on is in violation?

If that's the case, I could see an argument that by listening to someone else's device, you are using it.

Edited August 3, 2016 by drmevo

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

The rule says:-  "the player must not use any artificial device" 

The player is not using the device. Someone else is.

So if a player asks another player who has a rangefinder with slope what the adjusted yardage is, that's fine too? The player didn't "use" the device.

2 hours ago, drmevo said:

So in the case of a group, say one guy says "Hey, I'm going to throw some tunes on, OK?" to which everyone else replies, "Sure, sounds good." You're saying only the guy who put the music on is in violation?

If that's the case, I could see an argument that by listening to someone else's device, you are using it.

I also agree with that.

---

All that said, the rules of golf encourage people to post rounds for handicapping. If music helps you, then it's only hurting you to play with music on and post your rounds for handicap, because your handicap will be lower somewhat artificially.

It's not a big deal in handicap rounds. You can concede gimmes, not play a second ball, etc. and still post rounds for handicap. They're pretty loose, because they want people posting rounds for handicaps.

So is listening to someone else's music enough to invalidate your round for HDCP posting? Probably not. But it's a grey area, and because I don't care to listen to music on the golf course, why venture into the grey area at all? Just turn it off.

---

I took a few minutes in the other thread to respond to you, @David in FL, and you ignored it perhaps because you had no answer to the fact that it's a simple matter of common courtesy. Whether it's a sense of entitlement or just a general disregard for the common courtesy of not playing music if any one person doesn't want it, I don't know. Golfers have the expectation that they won't have to listen to your music during a round of golf. It's against the Rules of Golf (even if for handicapping rounds such smaller infractions are often overlooked or deemed insignificant enough to allow posting, like Drew's gimmes or tap-ins with the flagstick in), and it's against common courtesy and the etiquette of the game we all play.

Your own example of cigar smokers shows this: the cigar smoker should absolutely put out his cigar or do all possible to make sure the one who does not wish to breathe in cigar smoke does not during the round.

This thread feels like an attempt to ignore all of that and perhaps a way so that you can feel better about your lack of consideration of others. It's rude, it's inconsiderate, and it's not in the spirit of the game's etiquette or common courtesy.

How would you like it if I said "Hey, do you mind if I annoy you for the next four hours?" and you said "I do mind, thank you." and I ignored that and just did whatever it was I was going to do, or told you "then go play with someone else"?

Wear ear buds. Even if it's legal in handicap rounds… wear ear buds. Show some courtesy if a player in your group doesn't want to listen to your music.

[Hardspoon]

As someone who has listened to music played by others (even though I find it obnoxious) only to avoid conflict, I actually like the distinction @Rulesman makes above, used to achieve a common-sense result: if you would prefer the music to be turned off/down, and your request is refused, you aren't "using" the device, regardless of whether you can overhear the music.

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

So if a player asks another player who has a rangefinder with slope what the adjusted yardage is, that's fine too? The player didn't "use" the device.

That wouldn't be a violation of 14-3, it's a violation of Rule 8.

Brings up a good example: if someone uses a rangefinder and calls out the yardage (adjusted) to his buddy and you overhear, you're not in violation of Rule 8. I think the music is the same thing.

EDIT: OK, apparently this IS a violation of 14-3, since it is the nature of the information provided by the device that is at issue. So my example doesn't really work. I still think there should be a common-sense application that works for "forced listening", but maybe the "Committee assessing all facts" part is the best we've got.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

EDIT: OK, apparently this IS a violation of 14-3, since it is the nature of the information provided by the device that is at issue. So my example doesn't really work. I still think there should be a common-sense application that works for "forced listening", but maybe the "Committee assessing all facts" part is the best we've got.

In handicap rounds, it really doesn't matter.

If this was a tournament, and one player was listening to music, and other players complained but the guy wouldn't turn it off, I think they'd be clear. But if they encouraged or even just accepted the music, I think they'd be in violation, too.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

So if a player asks another player who has a rangefinder with slope what the adjusted yardage is, that's fine too? The player didn't "use" the device.

I also agree with that.

---

All that said, the rules of golf encourage people to post rounds for handicapping. If music helps you, then it's only hurting you to play with music on and post your rounds for handicap, because your handicap will be lower somewhat artificially.

It's not a big deal in handicap rounds. You can concede gimmes, not play a second ball, etc. and still post rounds for handicap. They're pretty loose, because they want people posting rounds for handicaps.

So is listening to someone else's music enough to invalidate your round for HDCP posting? Probably not. But it's a grey area, and because I don't care to listen to music on the golf course, why venture into the grey area at all? Just turn it off.

---

I took a few minutes in the other thread to respond to you, @David in FL, and you ignored it perhaps because you had no answer to the fact that it's a simple matter of common courtesy. Whether it's a sense of entitlement or just a general disregard for the common courtesy of not playing music if any one person doesn't want it, I don't know. Golfers have the expectation that they won't have to listen to your music during a round of golf. It's against the Rules of Golf (even if for handicapping rounds such smaller infractions are often overlooked or deemed insignificant enough to allow posting, like Drew's gimmes or tap-ins with the flagstick in), and it's against common courtesy and the etiquette of the game we all play.

Your own example of cigar smokers shows this: the cigar smoker should absolutely put out his cigar or do all possible to make sure the one who does not wish to breathe in cigar smoke does not during the round.

This thread feels like an attempt to ignore all of that and perhaps a way so that you can feel better about your lack of consideration of others. It's rude, it's inconsiderate, and it's not in the spirit of the game's etiquette or common courtesy.

How would you like it if I said "Hey, do you mind if I annoy you for the next four hours?" and you said "I do mind, thank you." and I ignored that and just did whatever it was I was going to do, or told you "then go play with someone else"?

Wear ear buds. Even if it's legal in handicap rounds… wear ear buds. Show some courtesy if a player in your group doesn't want to listen to your music.

I mentioned in the other thread that I felt that the rules piece was OT, and that is move that question here.  I've done do.

You made it clear in your previous post that you believe that my group is rude by not conforming to the expectation of a single joining us.  I believe that a single spexpecting a group to conform to his expectations is the rude one.  We clearly have different views.   If I don't like the manner in which another group plays, I'll leave them to their thing, but I don't expect others to conform to me just because, well I don't know, I guess just because it's what I want....

[iacas]

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

You made it clear in your previous post that you believe that my group is rude by not conforming to the expectation of a single joining us.  I believe that a single spexpecting a group to conform to his expectations is the rude one.  We clearly have different views.   If I don't like the manner in which another group plays, I'll leave them to their thing, but I don't expect others to conform to me just because, well I don't know, I guess just because it's what I want....

You keep making it about majority rules, but that's not the way these things really work.

Your own example of a cigar smoker worked against you.

But this is the rules thread so that's all…

[boogielicious]

I don't like grey areas in rules as I am not an expert on all the decisions. So I would opt toward not posting for handicap to be absolutely sure.

[Jeremie Boop]

41 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

I don't like grey areas in rules as I am not an expert on all the decisions. So I would opt toward not posting for handicap to be absolutely sure.

This tends to be my view also, I would rather not be able to have someone come back and tell me that I posted an invalid round. Especially if I tell the person that I'm fine with them playing music, then I really feel like I just agreed to listen to music which is against the rules.

 

14 hours ago, iacas said:

So if a player asks another player who has a rangefinder with slope what the adjusted yardage is, that's fine too? The player didn't "use" the device.

 

I was thinking this exact same thing when I read "the player isn't using the device" response.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

I don't like grey areas in rules as I am not an expert on all the decisions. So I would opt toward not posting for handicap to be absolutely sure.

Unfortunately, people might use the "grey area" as a convenient excuse to avoid posting rounds.

The greater shame...

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Unfortunately, people might use the "grey area" as a convenient excuse to avoid posting rounds.

The greater shame...

I'm torn on this issue, really.  I realize that continued violation of Rule 14-3 invalidates a round, for handicap purposes.  Yet for most players, the music is more of a social thing than as something to assist him in playing.  The committee is given some latitude in assessing the circumstances, so the intent of the player (social v. assistance) could be a consideration in making a judgement. 

Interestingly, there's no restriction on music during practice on the course with others (paraphrasing from the Decision).  Certain types of practice (multiple balls from the tee or fairway, extra clubs to evaluate a purchase, etc.) can't be posted, but for many of us, casual rounds of golf are the way we practice.  

You could also make a case that if the music is turned off while swinging, and only stays on while walking or riding between shots, it isn't being played for a "prolonged period".

I chair the handicap committee at my club, and one of the struggles is getting everyone posting all of their rounds.  If I'm asked by one of the members whether a round with music should be posted, I'd generally say yes.  I'd also let them know what the rules say about music, and let them know it definitely isn't going to be allowed in competitions.  For those of you who would choose not to post such rounds, I'd suggest you talk to your local handicap committee, and follow whatever decision they make.

[Golfingdad]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

So if a player asks another player who has a rangefinder with slope what the adjusted yardage is, that's fine too? The player didn't "use" the device.

That doesn't seem quite the same as the OP, though, which stated that he was forced to listen to music that he "had no control over."  A more analogous scenario with the rangefinder would be if a stranger, without solicitation, just went ahead and shot a number from your ball for you to be friendly and shared it with you before you had the chance to tell him it wasn't legal.  You didn't "use" the device, but you also had no control over having received the information.

Or, if we wanted to make the music scenario conform to your rangefinder scenario, then I'd say the player would have to say something like "Hey, do you have any Lil' Jon?  Can you put on Turn Down For What?! and crank that *&^% to 11??"

(Otherwise, I agree with your entire post)

[SG11118]

Is it illegal for a golfer to relax themselves by smoking a cigarette?  smoking a cigar?  smoking weed?  drinking alcohol?  taking drugs?  singing to themselves?  With the exception of singing to themselves, could these things could be labeled as "artificial devices".  If these things are legal per the rules of golf and the decisions of golf, I think it should be perfectly acceptable for a golfer to utilize listening to random music or talk radio (at an appropriate volume) to help relax themselves.  It may even help pass the time, be more social with their playing partners, and have a more enjoyable time.  Really, if the USGA is interested in growing the game, I think they should reconsider D14-3/17. 

I do agree with D14-3/17 that a golfer shouldn't be able to use music as an aid to improve their swing tempo.  As long as this isn't the intent of the music (or some other way to gain an unfair advantage), I really don't have a problem with posting scores under the influence of music / talk radio.

[Jeremie Boop]

30 minutes ago, SG11118 said:

Is it illegal for a golfer to relax themselves by smoking a cigarette?  smoking a cigar?  smoking weed?  drinking alcohol?  taking drugs?  singing to themselves?  With the exception of singing to themselves, could these things could be labeled as "artificial devices".  If these things are legal per the rules of golf and the decisions of golf, I think it should be perfectly acceptable for a golfer to utilize listening to random music or talk radio (at an appropriate volume) to help relax themselves.  It may even help pass the time, be more social with their playing partners, and have a more enjoyable time.  Really, if the USGA is interested in growing the game, I think they should reconsider D14-3/17. 

I do agree with D14-3/17 that a golfer shouldn't be able to use music as an aid to improve their swing tempo.  As long as this isn't the intent of the music (or some other way to gain an unfair advantage), I really don't have a problem with posting scores under the influence of music / talk radio.

The USGA doesn't care what you do if you are just playing and not posting for handicap. However, if you are posting for handicap they have rules that you are supposed to follow. Nobody is saying that you or anyone else have to carry a handicap and you don't have to carry a handicap to enjoy playing golf with your friends. Growing the game doesn't mean "more people are playing by the rules and carrying a handicap" growing the game just means more people out on the course.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, SG11118 said:

Is it illegal for a golfer to relax themselves by smoking a cigarette?  smoking a cigar?  smoking weed?  drinking alcohol?  taking drugs?  ... could these things could be labeled as "artificial devices?"

That actually seems like a fair set of questions.  I looked briefly and couldn't find anything that addresses those items.  I did notice that the decision for music specifically talks about "during the stroke," but then it also goes on to say "or for prolonged periods."

Obviously, smoking is not against the rules because we know of a lot of pros who do it (John Daly, Spencer Levin, Jim Thorpe, etc) on the tours.  There seems to be a line drawn in there somewhere between listening to music (possibly promoting a good tempo) and smoking (can possibly calm the nerves), but I'm not sure exactly where it is, or exactly why it is where it is. 

[SG11118]

19 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

The USGA doesn't care what you do if you are just playing and not posting for handicap. However, if you are posting for handicap they have rules that you are supposed to follow. Nobody is saying that you or anyone else have to carry a handicap and you don't have to carry a handicap to enjoy playing golf with your friends. Growing the game doesn't mean "more people are playing by the rules and carrying a handicap" growing the game just means more people out on the course.

Either you are playing by the rules of golf or you are not.  I don't see what handicap has to do with it.  I think the USGA would say that if you are competing with your friends (or anyone else), be it for bragging rights, pennies, dollars, or for a tournament, you should be playing by the rules of golf to make the competition fair - regardless of whether you are posting the score for handicap purposes.

[Jeremie Boop]

6 minutes ago, SG11118 said:

Either you are playing by the rules of golf or you are not.  I don't see what handicap has to do with it.  I think the USGA would say that if you are competing with your friends (or anyone else), be it for bragging rights, pennies, dollars, or for a tournament, you should be playing by the rules of golf to make the competition fair - regardless of whether you are posting the score for handicap purposes.

You'd be surprised how few people actually play by the rules.

[DaveP043]

27 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

 I did notice that the decision for music specifically talks about "during the stroke," but then it also goes on to say "or for prolonged periods."

I noted that same distinction a few posts back, and suggested that listening only between shots might NOT fit the description of a "prolonged period."  I'll admit, my motivation was to find a reason to encourage people to post their scores.  

I think the USGA was in a difficult spot, trying to figure out how to word a decision to make using music for assistance illegal, and the description of "during the stroke or for prolonged periods" was the best they could do.  They also seem to be uncertain enough that they allow the Committee some leeway in considering "all the available facts and circumstances".  There are very few rules where a players intention makes a difference, but it seems like this could be one of them.  As a member of a handicap committee, I'd prefer to disqualify as few rounds as possible, while keeping within the handicap system rules.

11 minutes ago, SG11118 said:

Either you are playing by the rules of golf or you are not.  I don't see what handicap has to do with it.  I think the USGA would say that if you are competing with your friends (or anyone else), be it for bragging rights, pennies, dollars, or for a tournament, you should be playing by the rules of golf to make the competition fair - regardless of whether you are posting the score for handicap purposes.

This entire thread is about handicap.  You can post rounds for your handicap that in many cases aren't played completely within the rules of golf.  The question we're discussing is whether listening to music, and in the original post, listening to music that you're not providing and haven't approved, disqualifies a round from being posted.  Whether you should play strictly by the rules in your casual rounds, that's another topic entirely.

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As a member of a handicap committee, I'd prefer to disqualify as few rounds as possible, while keeping within the handicap system rules.

I would agree with this.  And since we're talking about something that is potentially advantageous, then we're leaning towards the "vanity" handicap side of the scale and I would DEFINITELY want to avoid disqualifying those rounds if its in a grey area.