Posting a score for hdcp listening to music

[David in FL]

This is a question that came up tangentially to another topic regarding the playing of music on the course.  Some enjoy it, some oppose it.  Regardless of how one feels personally, a question was posed with respect to the impact of a single player being placed with another group on a crowded golf course....

Rule 14-3 prohibits a player from using a device, e.g. smart phone/speaker/headset, during a stipulated round, and that he'd likely be disqualified for doing so in a competition. 

The question pertains to a single player on a crowded course, placed with another group, rather than being allowed to play as a single.  That group opts to play music during their casual round of golf which results in the single player overhearing music throughout the round.  Music that he may or may not enjoy, that may or may not have impacted his play (positively or negatively), and over which he had no control.

..... is the single player in violation of the ROG such that it automatically invalidates his ability to post an otherwise properly played round for handicap purposes?

 

Decision 14-3/17

Player Listens to Music or Broadcast During Round

Q.A player uses a device to listen to music, a radio broadcast or any other type of broadcast during a stipulated round. What is the ruling?

A.Under Rule 14-3a, a player may not use any artificial device or unusual equipment that "might assist him in making a stroke or in his play." Listening to music or a broadcast while making a stroke or for a prolonged period might assist the player in his play, for example, by eliminating distractions or promoting a good tempo. Therefore, the use of an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast, whether or not through headphones, while making a stroke or for a prolonged period of time during a stipulated round is a breach of Rule 14-3. However, it would not be a breach of Rule 14-3 for a player to listen to a device briefly, for example, to obtain the results of another sporting event or traffic information, while walking between the putting green of one hole and the teeing ground of the next hole.

A Committee will have to consider all available facts and circumstances in determining whether a player using an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast has done so for a prolonged period such that the action might have assisted the player in his play.

There is no restriction on listening to music or other broadcasts while practicing (whether on the practice ground or on the golf course, and whether by oneself or while playing with others), although club rules and disciplinary codes could apply in such circumstances.

 

I vote no.  The individual has no control over the conduct of the strangers with whom he's paired, and I'd argue that "listening" as written in the rule/decision requires a certain intent/agreement to do so, rather than simply overhearing something another party is doing.  I'd also offer that as always, in a casual round, a group, or individual may function as their own committee.  Given the latitude provided in the decision, having considered the facts and circumstances, he can easily make the determination that the music did not assist him in his play.  

 

@Rulesman, @Fourputt, @iacas, @Dormie1360, @Asheville, @Martyn W, et.al...  What say you...post the score, or prohibited from doing so?

[saevel25]

18 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I vote no.  The individual has no control over the conduct of the strangers with whom he's paired, and I'd argue that "listening" as written in the rule/decision requires a certain intent/agreement to do so, rather than simply overhearing something another party is doing. 

I think it depends on if the person is for or against the use of music in the group.

If the person is asked if they mind the use of music, and agrees to allow it, then they are violating the rules. 

If the person voices their opinion that they do not want music played and it is played anyways then no they are not in violation of the rules. 

 

[DaveP043]

54 minutes ago, David in FL said:

The question pertains to a single player on a crowded course, placed with another group, rather than being allowed to play as a single.  That group opts to play music during their casual round of golf which results in the single player overhearing music throughout the round.  Music that he may or may not enjoy, that may or may not have impacted his play (positively or negatively), and over which he had no control.

I think @saevel25 is on the right track, its the issue of control.  I think its a pretty rare case where a player really has no control.  He can accept the music, but ask that the volume be kept low, or that it be turned off while he's hitting.  If he does that, I'd say he's within the rules.  Its a pretty rude group of players that wouldn't work out a compromise to minimize the effect of the music on another player.  However, if the player accepts the music without qualification, I agree he's breaching the rule along with the guys he's paired with, and continued breach of 14-3 disqualifies the score from handicap posting.

I hate to see this happen.  I know at least a few players who will look for any excuse to avoid posting specific scores.  Some don't like posting the low ones (sandbaggers) and some avoid posting the high ones (vanity cappers), and I hate to give them one more excuse to use.

Of course, we're all looking at revisions to the handicap system within the next few years, potentially moving to a single global system.  One possibility is to move toward the CONGU system of using primarily competition scores.  If that happens, and music remains unacceptable, and assuming the music rule is enforced in competitions, this question may pretty much disappear.  

[drmevo]

I think it's a valid question and I can see both sides as I said in the other thread, but it seems like too much of a grey area to mess with (assuming the single can hear the music often and while making stokes).

Are we going on the basis that the three-some cannot post their rounds? Or just the guy playing music?  I know it's not the point of the question, so if too OT, that's fine.

Edited August 3, 2016 by drmevo

[CarlSpackler]

I say no unless they player himself is playing the music where he chooses the station/playlist or has asked someone else to put on some music. Anything else is out of their control. If the player is asked if they mind, they should respond that they do because it is a violation of ROG, but I don't see a requirement that a player has to ask someone to turn off their music.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

The question pertains to a single player on a crowded course, placed with another group, rather than being allowed to play as a single.  That group opts to play music during their casual round of golf which results in the single player overhearing music throughout the round.  Music that he may or may not enjoy, that may or may not have impacted his play (positively or negatively), and over which he had no control.

..... is the single player in violation of the ROG such that it automatically invalidates his ability to post an otherwise properly played round for handicap purposes?

I'd vote no.  An interesting follow-up would be whether or not he'd be in violation if he pulled out a pair of earplugs to drown out the "illegal" music that he was unable to get them to turn off.  They would be assisting him in "eliminating distractions" but it would be a distraction that was against the rules to begin with that he could not get remedied.

And since this is the rules forum, I'll put the following in a spoiler:

Spoiler

If we're all being totally honest here, I'd say that we all (sorry, I mean many of us - there are definitely a lot of you that go by the letter 100% of time during casual rounds and good on you) break small rules from time to time, so it seems silly to even consider this.  I don't know if I can say there has been a single casual round I've played where I haven't taken a gimme, or an improper drop, or putted out a 6" with the flagstick in the hole, etc, etc.  If I am playing with somebody who plays music that they won't turn off, so be it.  I'm still posting my score.

 

[Shindig]

5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

And since this is the rules forum, I'll put the following in a spoiler:

  Hide contents

If we're all being totally honest here, I'd say that we all (sorry, I mean many of us - there are definitely a lot of you that go by the letter 100% of time during casual rounds and good on you) break small rules from time to time, so it seems silly to even consider this.  I don't know if I can say there has been a single casual round I've played where I haven't taken a gimme, or an improper drop, or putted out a 6" with the flagstick in the hole, etc, etc.  If I am playing with somebody who plays music that they won't turn off, so be it.  I'm still posting my score.

 

In response to the contents of the spoiler:

 

Spoiler

Other than the improper drop (and that depends on just how improper), there's nothing wrong with posting a score for handicap purposes where you took a gimme, or putted a 6" with the flagstick still in, etc.  Handicap isn't "strictly by the ROG" -- you would almost certainly have made that 6" putt if the flagstick was pulled, and you played by the rules up to that point on the hole, so your score for that hole (etc) is valid as your most likely score.  Yes, in a tournament you'd need to pull it, but handicap rounds do allow for a slight relaxation, and that's one of them.

 

[imsys0042]

I personally don't believe that music listening should be in the rules because there are a number of things you could bring onto the course to calm you, or help you with rhythm depending on how you are wired.   Music does not do it for me, although I like to listen to it.  My club doesn't enforce the rule as many people listen to music, although the course is also non-rule compliant with hazards and drops anyway.

Someone I played with told me that someone had a hole in one and there was some type of money on the line, so one of the other players was trying to have the round disqualified because he played music.

Personally I wouldn't infringe on someone else playing music, unless excessively loud, so I wouldn't ask them.   If it's a tournament I expect no music.

[DaveP043]

Generally speaking, I'm in favor of players posting as many rounds for handicap as possible under the rules.

3 hours ago, David in FL said:

A Committee will have to consider all available facts and circumstances in determining whether a player using an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast has done so for a prolonged period such that the action might have assisted the player in his play.

 To disqualify a round where you've played with someone who has music on just seems contrary to the intent of the handicap system.  The Committee is given a significant amount of leeway in making a determination that could result in a penalty or DQ.  For casual play, I think the player should be given the same kind of leeway in determining whether his action (or inaction, if its not his own music) might have assisted him in his play, and by extension, whether his round should be posted.

Spoiler

And if its assisted him, and he's not my partner in some subsequent event, post em twice, make his handicap even lower than it would be without the assistance!  I want to compete against all the vanity-cappers that I can

 

[jsgolfer]

 

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

Generally speaking, I'm in favor of players posting as many rounds for handicap as possible under the rules.

 To disqualify a round where you've played with someone who has music on just seems contrary to the intent of the handicap system.  The Committee is given a significant amount of leeway in making a determination that could result in a penalty or DQ.  For casual play, I think the player should be given the same kind of leeway in determining whether his action (or inaction, if its not his own music) might have assisted him in his play, and by extension, whether his round should be posted.

  Hide contents

And if its assisted him, and he's not my partner in some subsequent event, post em twice, make his handicap even lower than it would be without the assistance!  I want to compete against all the vanity-cappers that I can

 

I would vote No, what constitutes a prolonged period of time or listening during a stroke of which you have no control of?  

And Dave hit it on the head, if the music sort of soothes the savage beast, when he/she play in a tournament and music isn't allowed, they may be a disadvantage to the rest of the field. 

[Rulesman]

The rule says:-  "the player must not use any artificial device" 

The player is not using the device. Someone else is.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Rulesman

[Dormie1360]

I'm totally against playing music on the course.  Having said that, in the OP's scenario, I'd have no problem if he wanted to post it.

[Big C]

I'm trying to imagine making the case to my handicap chairman that I didn't post my score (let's say for arguments sake that it was a good score), because some guy in my group happened to be listening to music on and off throughout the round. Yeah..... in my head, that conversation isn't going very well for me.

So yes, I'm posting a score in that scenario and not really thinking twice about it.

 

[Club Rat]

I think it would be walking a fine line in the OP topic "Posting a score for hcp, having overheard music" in casual play.

In competition, the Rules certainly govern play of all players.

I would be certainly be in Breach, as the majority of my rounds, someone has music playing, or we listen to sports, golf, baseball, etc.

I play the game for fun and enjoyment and in competitions. I have no problem, separating casual rounds and competitive rounds.

I post all scores and that's a fact.

 

[No Mulligans]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

The rule says:-  "the player must not use any artificial device" 

The player is not using the device. Someone else is.

+1, to me that has to be the correct answer.

If this wasn't the case... Suppose a loud band is playing at the club house patio that can be heard from half of the courses holes... everyone's round wouldn't count?

[Tod]

Help me out here, even by saying this is off-topic:

If a single cannot post a round for handicap purposes, how can a single playing with a three-some that has agreed to violate the rules (by playing music or any other thing) post a round?  If the point of disallowing singles from posting scores is to enforce peer review, that whole concept goes out the window with any agreement to not play by the rules, even if the single is playing by the rules because the other players are now suspect in any peer review they might provide.

Am I terribly off-base here?

[Rulesman]

6 minutes ago, Tod said:

Help me out here, even by saying this is off-topic:

If a single cannot post a round for handicap purposes, how can a single playing with a three-some that has agreed to violate the rules (by playing music or any other thing) post a round?  If the point of disallowing singles from posting scores is to enforce peer review, that whole concept goes out the window with any agreement to not play by the rules, even if the single is playing by the rules because the other players are now suspect in any peer review they might provide.

Am I terribly off-base here?

A legitimate question but a wrong conclusion. The person accompanying doesn't have to be playing at all, never mind by the rules.

If you play in a tournament and your marker is DQd for whatever reason, should your score not count?

[Tod]

2 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

A legitimate question but a wrong conclusion. The person accompanying doesn't have to be playing at all, never mind by the rules.

If you play in a tournament and your marker is DQd for whatever reason, should your score not count?

Okay, I get that distinction. Clearly, I think, the score counts...unless both have agreed to suspend rules. 

Thanks.