Random Timing

[Rulesman]

The R&A has introduced a new POP clause for their amateur events. It is widely being taken up through the UK in high level competition. 

(d) Random Timing Without Warning When Group Not Out of Position

In some circumstances, a group or an individual player may be timed without warning, including when a group is not out of position. In such cases of “random timing”, the timing provisions and penalties set out in clause (b) above apply, except that a player will only be given a bad time if he exceeds 60 seconds to play a shot, with an extra 10 seconds given (i.e. 70 seconds in total) for the “first to play” shots referenced in (b) above.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Rulesman

[Papa Steve 55]

If a groups not out of position, what's the point?

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Papa Steve 55 said:

If a groups not out of position, what's the point?

To provide an incentive to STAY in position.

[bkuehn1952]

Many of us have had the tournament experience of playing in a group with an overly deliberate player. The balance of the group plays quickly so the sloth-like speed of one member of the group is masked by the overall average speed being acceptable.  It can be a bit tiring to constantly try to keep someone moving and I would welcome a random timing in those instances.

 

 

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

To provide an incentive to STAY in position.

Particularly if it is encountered on the first few holes.

[pganapathy]

Assuming you keep up with the group in front and don't hold up the group behind, random timing is kinda like a surprise drug test.  An attempt to keep you honest.  Honestly though it does not really help unless you can target that one individual who is slow and punish him only, not the entire group

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, pganapathy said:

Assuming you keep up with the group in front and don't hold up the group behind, random timing is kinda like a surprise drug test.  An attempt to keep you honest.  Honestly though it does not really help unless you can target that one individual who is slow and punish him only, not the entire group

If I read the original post correctly, the "bad time" applies only to the individual player.  Maybe @Rulesman can explain a little more about the consequences of one or more  "bad times."

[Rulesman]

The random time is aimed specifically at one player who is potentially or actually causing a problem. It has no impact on the others in the group

Potentially - as in the eg above where an accrual of his times will put his group out of position

Actually - eg significantly interfering with the concentration of his fellow competitors.

The sequence is the same as the normal POP process.

1 bad time - warning

2 bad times - 1 stroke penalty

3 bad times - further 2 stroke penalty

4 bad times - DQ

In a case I had a week or so ago, both potential and actual were factors. The group ahead were beginning to lose them and as a result his FCs were getting rather disconcerted about the whole group being put on the clock.

[DaveP043]

Thanks, seems like a reasonable approach.  I read in the OP that the allowable time for the random check is 60 (or 70) seconds.  Does that allowable time change if the group actually does fall behind?

[Shindig]

When did random start meaning something other than "according to a given probability distribution"?  They're putting players on the clock arbitrarily (that's a description of the policy, not a judgment of it). 

[CarlSpackler]

As I said the other day in another thread, they need to incorporate a "shot clock" that is running on every group. Picture a guy walking around with a countdown timer mounted to a backpack over his head. Let's make sure that everyone has to adhere to the same standard all the time.

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, Shindig said:

When did random start meaning something other than "according to a given probability distribution"?  They're putting players on the clock arbitrarily (that's a description of the policy, not a judgment of it). 

"In some circumstances a player may be timed without warning".  I can only guess, but I'd bet that most of those circumstances won't be random, nor arbitrary, but will instead be targeted where a player is suspected of playing slowly, whether or not his group has fallen out of position. It seems like a tool to help avoid having slow play become a problem, rather than waiting for a problem to arise.   As a title heading, I'd suggest that "random" is a more palatable term than "targeted" or anything else I could come up with.

[MrFlipper]

Think how slow someone must be playing to get on the "watch", then fail when on the clock.

I played with a remarkably slow guy last weekend, I started counting watermelons when he set up to the ball (after pulling his club, which took awhile as well). Right around 40 seconds every time, enough to fail when on the clock on PGA and LPGA tours. It was incredibly slow. And by the guideline above of 60 seconds (or 70 if you go first), he was plenty fast by at least 15 seconds, which is a long time.

I think this is a good idea. For example, you put Jordan Spieth with Bubba and John Daly, they would probably never get out of position because Bubba and Daly go so fast that they make up for Spieth being super slow. But that should not mean open license for Spieth to play slow.

The minimum benchmark here is still incredibly slow. Next time you play, try to play this slow. You can't. 60 seconds is glacial.

Or if you can, I guess that's another issue, and maybe you need to speed up :)

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, MrFlipper said:

I played with a remarkably slow guy last weekend, I started counting watermelons when he set up to the ball (after pulling his club, which took awhile as well). Right around 40 seconds every time, enough to fail when on the clock on PGA and LPGA tours. It was incredibly slow. And by the guideline above of 60 seconds (or 70 if you go first), he was plenty fast by at least 15 seconds, which is a long time.

I don't know fur sure about the R&A, but I believe that under the PGA and USGA slow play policies, the clock starts when it becomes your turn to play.  Any time you spend talking, measuring, throwing grass, picking a club, anything else, all that time counts.

[MrFlipper]

11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't know fur sure about the R&A, but I believe that under the PGA and USGA slow play policies, the clock starts when it becomes your turn to play.  Any time you spend talking, measuring, throwing grass, picking a club, anything else, all that time counts.

Yes, my understanding as well. I should have timed him from the second it was his turn to hit, but I only did it on tee boxes when it was his turn and he generally had a club already. But yes, I figure pulling a club probably added another 5 maybe 10 seconds to his whole process. Still not enough time for penalty on this program, but more than enough to make time stand still for the rest of us.

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't know fur sure about the R&A, but I believe that under the PGA and USGA slow play policies, the clock starts when it becomes your turn to play.  Any time you spend talking, measuring, throwing grass, picking a club, anything else, all that time counts.

The following from the England Golf hard card but it is virtually the same as the R&A procedure.

Time Allowed for a Stroke
i. The maximum time allocated per shot is 40 seconds. 10 extra seconds are allowed for the first player to play:
• on a par three hole;
• an approach shot; and
• a chip or putt
ii. The time will start when the player has had sufficient time to reach his ball, it is his turn to play and he is able to play without interference or distraction.
iii. The time allowed includes any yardage assessment, any walking forwards or backwards and any pre-shot routine, including practice swings.
iv. On the putting green, timing will start when the player has had a reasonable amount of time to lift, clean and replace his ball, repair pitch marks and move loose impediments on his line of putt. Time spent looking at the line from beyond the hole and / or behind the ball is included in the time allowed for the stroke.

 

[MrFlipper]

Man I wish this program was in effect for the ladies am today, 3 of the 4 are so slow, routinely taking 90 seconds plus to hit shots. Painful to watch. On and off the clock, no penalties yet.  Please!