Hit the ball while moving

[cjhunter32]

I played during a competition today. I had a putt for par of about 10 feet on a par 5 and it lipped out. I missed the 3 footer that followed out of anger (oops). Had about 1.5 feet left for 7. I was addressed to the ball, and did a forward press with my putter but accidentlyt hit the ball forward. I did not notice this and followed thru with my putt into the hole. The ball moved about 1-2 inches forward but my competitors told me I hit the ball while it was moving. The person running the tournament ruled this as 

Stroke 7: tapping the ball 1 inch forward

stroke 8 : hitting the ball into the cup

steoke 9: 1 stroke pentalty because I was told my ball never came to rest and I still struck it. 

The official spent a few minutes looked at the rule book, but seemed unsure of himself.

out of curiosity, was this the correct ruling?

[grantisadrummer]

I would assume he would have put it under rule 19-2:

"If a player’s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke."

Hitting it while it was moving would count as a deflection probably?

But does it count as a deflection if you don't change the path of the ball? I don't know.

[Piz]

The official was correct.  Tapping the ball was a stroke and, had you waited for the ball to come to rest, you would have holed out in 8.  See Rule 14-5.

[grantisadrummer]

47 minutes ago, Piz said:

The official was correct.  Tapping the ball was a stroke and, had you waited for the ball to come to rest, you would have holed out in 8.  See Rule 14-5.

I had looked at that too but ruled it out because the official applied a one stroke penalty, the penalty for striking a moving ball is 2 strokes.

[Martyn W]

8 hours ago, cjhunter32 said:

I played during a competition today. I had a putt for par of about 10 feet on a par 5 and it lipped out. I missed the 3 footer that followed out of anger (oops). Had about 1.5 feet left for 7. I was addressed to the ball, and did a forward press with my putter but accidentlyt hit the ball forward. I did not notice this and followed thru with my putt into the hole. The ball moved about 1-2 inches forward but my competitors told me I hit the ball while it was moving. The person running the tournament ruled this as 

Stroke 7: tapping the ball 1 inch forward

stroke 8 : hitting the ball into the cup

steoke 9: 1 stroke pentalty because I was told my ball never came to rest and I still struck it. 

The official spent a few minutes looked at the rule book, but seemed unsure of himself.

out of curiosity, was this the correct ruling?

When you moved the ball with your forward press it was not a stroke since there was no intent. The ball should have been replaced with a one strike penalty (18-2ii). Since it was not replaced an additional penalty of one stroke was incurred under 20-7 (playing from a wrong place) Your score for the hole was 9.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Martyn W

[Fourputt]

12 hours ago, Martyn W said:

When you moved the ball with your forward press it was not a stroke since there was no intent. The ball should have been replaced with a one strike penalty (18-2ii). Since it was not replaced an additional penalty of one stroke was incurred under 20-7 (playing from a wrong place) Your score for the hole was 9.

Martyn is correct.  Even though 2 rules were breached (18-2 and 14-5), since it was all done in a single act, a single 2 stroke penalty is applied.

From Decision 1-4/12:

Quote

2. One Act Results in Two Rules Being Breached - Single Penalty Applied

Example: In stroke play, a competitor is considering putting his ball from a bunker and rakes a footprint in the bunker on his line of play. Both Rule 13-2 and Rule 13-4a have been breached. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty.

 

[Whiner]

IMHO it is related acts result in two rules being breached--single penalty. R 1-4/12(4)

    1.  forward press moves ball--18-2
    2.  Stroke at moving ball--14/5

"in making the judgment whether two acts are related or unrelated, the Committee should consider, among other things, the similarity of the acts, how close to one another they are in terms of time and location and whether there were any intervening events;"

[Martyn W]

3 hours ago, Whiner said:

IMHO it is related acts result in two rules being breached--single penalty. R 1-4/12(4)

    1.  forward press moves ball--18-2
    2.  Stroke at moving ball--14/5

"in making the judgment whether two acts are related or unrelated, the Committee should consider, among other things, the similarity of the acts, how close to one another they are in terms of time and location and whether there were any intervening events;"

1-4/12 is not really applicable in this case. 1-4 (equity) is reserved for situations not covered by the Rules; this one is covered by 18-2 and 20-7.

[Fourputt]

7 hours ago, Martyn W said:

1-4/12 is not really applicable in this case. 1-4 (equity) is reserved for situations not covered by the Rules; this one is covered by 18-2 and 20-7.

How is it playing from a wrong place when the ball was still moving when it was struck?  It should be 14-2 and 18-5, and you refer to 1-4/12 for the explanation as to why breaching two two stroke rules doesn't result in a total of 4 penalty strokes.

[David in FL]

6 hours ago, Fourputt said:

How is it playing from a wrong place when the ball was still moving when it was struck?  It should be 14-2 and 18-5, and you refer to 1-4/12 for the explanation as to why breaching two two stroke rules doesn't result in a total of 4 penalty strokes.

Why would it matter that the ball is still moving?  Moving or stopped, it needed to be replaced and because it wasn't, the actual stroke was not played from the correct place, no?

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, David in FL said:

Why would it matter that the ball is still moving?  Moving or stopped, it needed to be replaced and because it wasn't, the actual stroke was not played from the correct place, no?

While it doesn't change the number of penalty strokes, it changes the second rule that was breached if the ball is still moving.  Rule 20-7, that Martyn noted, is playing from a wrong place, and since the ball is moving, it isn't in a "place", right or wrong.  The rules breached are "Ball at rest moved by player" (18-2) and "Playing a stroke at a moving ball" (14-5).  You are correct that since the ball wasn't replaced it is a 2 stroke penalty, but playing a stroke at a moving ball is also a 2 stroke penalty if done as a separate act.

For example:  The ball lies on a slope.  The player starts to address the ball and touches it and it starts to roll toward the hole.  The player follows after it and 5 feet later as the ball is rolling past the hole about 6 inches away, he bats the still moving ball into the hole.  That would be a case of separate acts breaching two rules and he would incur 4 penalty strokes.  

 

Correction:  In post #9 I mixed up the dash numbers and wrote 18-5 and 14-2 when it should be 18-2 and 14-5.  It was a dyslexic mistake, not ignorance.  Apologies for any confusion that might cause as it's too late to edit it.

[Whiner]

16 hours ago, Martyn W said:

1-4/12 is not really applicable in this case. 1-4 (equity) is reserved for situations not covered by the Rules; this one is covered by 18-2 and 20-7.

Yes.  I should have read more closely the question the decision answers--breaches PRIOR to stroke.

[Fourputt]

On 8/27/2016 at 9:18 PM, cjhunter32 said:

I played during a competition today. I had a putt for par of about 10 feet on a par 5 and it lipped out. I missed the 3 footer that followed out of anger (oops). Had about 1.5 feet left for 7. I was addressed to the ball, and did a forward press with my putter but accidentlyt hit the ball forward. I did not notice this and followed thru with my putt into the hole. The ball moved about 1-2 inches forward but my competitors told me I hit the ball while it was moving. The person running the tournament ruled this as 

Stroke 7: tapping the ball 1 inch forward

stroke 8 : hitting the ball into the cup

steoke 9: 1 stroke pentalty because I was told my ball never came to rest and I still struck it. 

The official spent a few minutes looked at the rule book, but seemed unsure of himself.

out of curiosity, was this the correct ruling?

Answering the OP's actual question:

 To be honest, the official was wrong no matter how you try to analyze it.  Playing a stroke at a moving ball is a 2 stroke penalty, even if you did nothing else wrong.  Since you also caused the ball to move prior to beginning the stroke, you were in breach of 2 rules.