Kaepernick Sits for National Anthem

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Good article: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17405859/colin-kaepernick-did-controversial-was-not-un-american-nfl

This is the only issue I have with the article...

Quote

An unscientific survey of Twitter reaction from players, fans and observers offered more evidence that the country is divided, perhaps still broken, along racial lines.

While it may be true, I think the debate in this forum - a small sampling to be sure - indicates otherwise. This kind of journalism pisses me off and is a bit insulting to the millions of Americans on either side of an issue who think for themselves instead of going along with the herd mentality. The article would have been fine without the suggestion that agreement or disagreement is divided based on race. If it's unscientific, why mention it? Crap like this is why I'd rather stay uninformed that misinformed.

I don't want to get too much into this, but to say this country oppresses people of color is a half truth. I think a lot of the issues are a result of a system that does not favor poverty.

That's not to say racism isn't a part of it. Only that it isn't always the only reason for crappy living conditions, or people getting beat up by the police, or a disproportionate amount violent deaths among people of color, or prison populations...

For those of you in the legal profession... how fair is our judicial system to poor people (of any color) compared to that of the affluent?

There are a lot of inequalities in this country. Racism isn't always the culprit.

[Tee2Trees]

He's wrong.

Not because of the flag or the anthem or the military or his salary or his lagging performance or his fame or his status or his upbringing or any of that.

He's wrong because he said his reason for doing it is because the police are killing too many black people.  Well, the police aren't the problem.  He has been motivated by propaganda and is perpetuating a myth with his selective outrage.  If he wants to see less black people getting gunned down he should support the police, but instead he has it exactly backwards.  Not a very deep thinker, this Kaepernick.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Tee2Trees

[newtogolf]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Of the six military guys I asked about it, five felt it was exactly the kind of thing they fought to protect and had no problem with it. The sixth said he thought it was disrespectful but said so is killing people and blowing shit up and the military does that itself.

Have you polled enough of the military to see whether it was seen as disrespectful by the majority?

My dad and uncle were in the military, they think he's an asshole but don't consider it disrespectful.  I believe in the Constitution, so I respect his right to protest, or others rights to free speech and to own a gun.  

I think he's a great athlete (not a great QB) but think he's missed the mark here, just as Beyonce did during the VMA's and Superbowl.  Seems celebrities these days use these sensitive issues to promote themselves and gain additional attention but really have no desire to resolve the problems.    

[Golfingdad]

18 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

This is the only issue I have with the article...

...This kind of journalism pisses me off ...

I get your point and tend to agree with you when they try and pass off collections of tweets and such as news, but this is still just an editorial, so it doesn't really bother me.

 

17 minutes ago, Tee2Trees said:

If he wants to see less black people getting gunned down he should support the police, but instead he has it exactly backwards.

As I understand it, he's specifically protesting black people that get gunned down by the police.

 

17 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I believe in the Constitution, ...  

I would hope so ... seeing as how it, you know, exists. 

 

18 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Seems celebrities these days use these sensitive issues to promote themselves and gain additional attention but really have no desire to resolve the problems.    

Or they are well-intentioned but just get it wrong.  A good thing to remember is that being good at football, or being able to sing well, such that you become well known nationally or worldwide does not mean that you are automatically super-intelligent.  They're normal people.

[newtogolf]

25 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Or they are well-intentioned but just get it wrong.  A good thing to remember is that being good at football, or being able to sing well, such that you become well known nationally or worldwide does not mean that you are automatically super-intelligent.  They're normal people.

They are normal people that have the ability to heavily influence less intelligent and easily impressionable people.  I feel there is some level of responsibility and obligation that goes with supporting and promoting a cause, of which accurate information is essential.   

He's bringing awareness to something he claims to believe in but unless he lived in a vacuum he's about a year behind protesting police violence.  What does he do with the awareness and energy he's generated other than to rile people up and potentially incite more riots?  Does he have a fund for people to contribute to (that he's contributing to)?  How about funding an outreach program in his community to repair the relationship between LEO and the people in the community?  Making black people and other minorities angrier at the police is not going to result in a solution it's going to make the problem worse.  

I see him as a guy just protesting for the sake of protesting who is likely going to be the reason another kid gets killed or cop gets shot and nothing good will comes from his efforts.     

[drmevo]

Was it the most effective way possible to help combat institutional racism?  Probably not, but neither is wearing pink cleats for breast cancer awareness month. 

Also, no disrespect intended here, but I don't directly associate the flag or national anthem with the military and I never really understood why people say that we owe all of our freedom to the military.  Our security, sure. But I think the flag and the national anthem are much more representative of our freedom than the military.

It's not like we have to guess why Kaepernick sat in protest - he plainly said why, and it had nothing to do with the military. When you have a statistically much higher chance of going to jail for minor crimes or being detained/shot/whatever by the police because you are black or brown, you could argue that is an issue of freedom.  

And yes, I know that statistically blacks commit more crimes per capita than non-blacks and that accounts for some of the disparity, but from the research I've read, all things being equal, black people still have to put up with a lot more shit than non-blacks.  Anecdotal evidence from black people I know also backs that up.

[newtogolf]

5 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Was it the most effective way possible to help combat institutional racism?  Probably not, but neither is wearing pink cleats for breast cancer awareness month. 

Also, no disrespect intended here, but I don't directly associate the flag or national anthem with the military and I never really understood why people say that we owe all of our freedom to the military.  Our security, sure. But I think the flag and the national anthem are much more representative of our freedom than the military.

It's not like we have to guess why Kaepernick sat in protest - he plainly said why, and it had nothing to do with the military. When you have a statistically much higher chance of going to jail for minor crimes or being detained/shot/whatever by the police because you are black or brown, you could argue that is an issue of freedom.  

And yes, I know that statistically blacks commit more crimes per capita than non-blacks and that accounts for some of the disparity, but from the research I've read, all things being equal, black people still have to put up with a lot more shit than non-blacks.  Anecdotal evidence from black people I know also backs that up.

Why isn't Kaepernick protesting black on black violent crime, lack of responsible male parents in inner city families, gang participation and lack of emphasis on education in inner cities.  

The police are a small part of a much larger problem that no one seems to want to address so they just point their finger at the police.  

[14ledo81]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Of the six military guys I asked about it, five felt it was exactly the kind of thing they fought to protect and had no problem with it. The sixth said he thought it was disrespectful but said so is killing people and blowing shit up and the military does that itself.

Have you polled enough of the military to see whether it was seen as disrespectful by the majority?

Can't say that I have polled many. Just basing my reasoning off of what I have read by some. Including some from this thread.

Also how I have seen many military and ex-military treat the flag in the past.

[Golfingdad]

22 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Why isn't Kaepernick protesting black on black violent crime, lack of responsible male parents in inner city families, gang participation and lack of emphasis on education in inner cities.  

The police are a small part of a much larger problem that no one seems to want to address so they just point their finger at the police.  

Well, for the record, Kaepernick said:

Quote

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

If you believe in the concept of instiutional racism, then I think it could be easily said that he is absolutely protesting all that you mentioned.

---

And, in the same article from which I grabbed his quote, here are more comments he made later clarifying some positions:

Quote

"I have great respect for the men and women that have fought for this country," said Kaepernick. "I have family, I have friends that have gone and fought for this country. And they fight for freedom, they fight for the people, they fight for liberty and justice, for everyone. That’s not happening.

"People are dying in vain because this country isn’t holding their end of the bargain up, as far as giving freedom and justice, liberty to everybody. That’s something that’s not happening.

"I’ve seen circumstances where men and women that have been in the military have come back and been treated unjustly by the country they fought have for, and have been murdered by the country they fought for, on our land. That’s not right."

 

[newtogolf]

5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Well, for the record, Kaepernick said:

If you believe in the concept of instiutional racism, then I think it could be easily said that he is absolutely protesting all that you mentioned.

---

And, in the same article from which I grabbed his quote, here are more comments he made later clarifying some positions:

 

It's possible.  I've spent more time thinking about Kaepernick today than I have his entire career so I'm over his protest and comments at this point.  Once the regular season begins and Gabbert is starting no one will care where or when he sits on the bench.  

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I've spent more time thinking about Kaepernick today than I have his entire career so I'm over his protest and comments at this point.

LOL, same here.  If you're assumption about this were right, and he was just being selfish, then I'd say it was a booming success.

We should be in a football thread talking about wtf happened to him that he's being passed by Blaine Gabbert.  (Or perhaps the answer to that was that nothing happened and he was never quite as good as we thought.  Maybe he was over-rated.)

Anywho ...

[drmevo]

45 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Why isn't Kaepernick protesting black on black violent crime, lack of responsible male parents in inner city families, gang participation and lack of emphasis on education in inner cities.  

The police are a small part of a much larger problem that no one seems to want to address so they just point their finger at the police.  

Those are all huge issues, to be sure, but they don't exist in a vacuum. @Golfingdad nailed it. 

[JonMA1]

3 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

If you believe in the concept of instiutional racism, then I think it could be easily said that he is absolutely protesting all that you mentioned.

He would gain a great deal more credibility, clarity and support if he came out and mentioned those other things. He seemed to be talking about the police in that statement.

As far as institutional racism, you'd have to show me examples (not internet articles or statistics) as I don't believe there's a systematic conspiracy to hold minorities down. Maybe there is and I'm being naive (and I'm sincere about my ignorance). I know racial profiling by the police is a real thing. But again, those are the towns where a long-haired white kid driving an old beater is going to be pulled over as well.

Few of us think what's going on with the poor in this country is a good thing. While some may be indifferent, and others may even feel a bit guilty (probably what CK is going through), most just feel powerless. That isn't racism. There really isn't that much separating my financial situation with theirs. With all the crazy shit my tax dollars go towards, contributing to programs which provide opportunity for those less fortunate doesn't seem that bad.

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

He would gain a great deal more credibility, clarity and support if he came out and mentioned those other things. He seemed to be talking about the police in that statement.

As far as institutional racism, you'd have to show me examples (not internet articles or statistics) as I don't believe there's a systematic conspiracy to hold minorities down. Maybe there is and I'm being naive (and I'm sincere about my ignorance). I know racial profiling by the police is a real thing. But again, those are the towns where a long-haired white kid driving an old beater is going to be pulled over as well.

Few of us think what's going on with the poor in this country is a good thing. While some may be indifferent, and others may even feel a bit guilty (probably what CK is going through), most just feel powerless. That isn't racism. There really isn't that much separating my financial situation with theirs. With all the crazy shit my tax dollars go towards, contributing to programs which provide opportunity for those less fortunate doesn't seem that bad.

I don't have a very strong opinion about it, because like you, I'm fairly ignorant and naive about the whole thing too. :)

[mchepp]

17 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

LOL, same here.  If you're assumption about this were right, and he was just being selfish, then I'd say it was a booming success.

We should be in a football thread talking about wtf happened to him that he's being passed by Blaine Gabbert.  (Or perhaps the answer to that was that nothing happened and he was never quite as good as we thought.  Maybe he was over-rated.)

Anywho ...

When he was good (and we can debate if he was ever very good) he had an outstanding coach and one the best defenses in the league.

Coach was hated by management and thus undermined, defense was injured pretty badly in 8-8 season and then coach leaves, mass retirements on defense, and then a coach who likely wouldn't get a job coaching a Canadian Football team was installed and it all went to hell. 

He will be no better than Alex Smith was before Harbaugh showed up and that is pretty bad for those of us that remember. He should have taken the pay cut and found a way to get to the Broncos. Instead he will languish away to nothing.  In 2 years he will be a back up then in 2 more out of the league. 

[colin007]

4 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

"May you seek God’s forgiveness and find humility, because we, the people are not going to forget what you did and said."

 

 

Another interesting (portion of) article.  This is from a black man that had served in the military.

Anyone thinking that God (and yes, I DO believe in him/it) cares who stands and who sits during one country's anthem, as opposed to any other country's, is gravely mistaken.

[baller7345]

33 minutes ago, mchepp said:

He will be no better than Alex Smith was before Harbaugh showed up and that is pretty bad for those of us that remember.

Off topic, but will he age as Smith has?  Smith has become an above average NFL QB and all it took was an offense that actually had a plan of attack (I'm sure it helps he's been running some form of the West Coast since Harbaugh).

 

EDIT:

I should have read the rest of your post...you answered that one for me.

Edited August 30, 2016 by baller7345

[mchepp]

3 minutes ago, baller7345 said:

Off topic, but will he age as Smith has?  Smith has become an above average NFL QB and all it took was an offense that actually had a plan of attack (I'm sure it helps he's been running some form of the West Coast since Harbaugh).

 

EDIT:

I should have read the rest of your post...you answered that one for me.

Smith was the biggest benefactor of Harbaugh. Yes, he lost his job when he got a concussion, but he has been serviceable since the first day that Harbaugh showed up. As you said he has gone on to continue that success but before Harbaugh showed up he was a hot mess. Not entirely his fault, clearly in a decent system he can have some success, but he lacked confidence in his early years. 

Kapernick won the job over Smith because Kap could score touchdowns. The defense had to account to for him almost as a running back. It would take a linebacker out of coverage making receivers more open. If they went into coverage he ran all over them. And he was better than any running back when running. 

His issue has always been disguised coverages. He will make a pre-snap read and he cannot adjust when the defense moves out of that pre-snap position. The Seahawks defense caught onto his inability to adjust his pre-snap read and once the other defenses caught onto this he was far less effective. 

Many 49er faithful now feel we should have never let Smith go. But the reality is Smith was really good at driving us down the field and kicking a crapload of field goals. He seemed to struggle with red zone efficiency. The field goals worked when we have a good defense, but Harbaugh saw touchdowns with Kapernick he couldn't get with Smith and traded him. I think Harbaugh did the right thing.

The big mistake was getting rid of Harbaugh.