Kaepernick Sits for National Anthem

[Hiway1tele]

On 9/14/2016 at 3:18 PM, JGus said:

I'll throw in my $0.02 here, not to argue with anyone's opinion or how they see things, but to just give my honest opinion from my perspective and from other fellow service members who I have spoken with about this topic and other similar topics.

 

I think these topics are tougher to discuss for those that have served, and honestly I really don't think the people I know who haven't served, when they ask me what I think as a militery person (regardless of the topic), if they really understand the difficulty in formulating an opinion.  I say this because if you haven't served, it is really hard to explain all of the things that find there way into the equation.  And please, nobody read into that, it's not a knock against those that have not served, just trying to highlight the fact that there are certain things that just don't translate from one side to the other.  Using the old saying, "Been there, done that", if you haven't been there and you haven't done that, it's really hard for those that have to explain it to you.  And this is true for a million other things as well, if you were in a plane crash and I haven't been, I will never fully understand the event no matter how many times you explain it to me.  Hopefully everyone will understand the point here.

 

Topics like these are a doubled edge sword, at least for me anyways.  On one hand the rights and freedom I fought for and defended, but on the other, disrespect to those defending the very right to do it (again, not arguing anyones opinion here, and don't plan to after this post, just stating what the middle looks like).  This is one of many topics that fall into this doubled edge sword category, which I try to avoid as I don't think I could ever clearly express why I have the thoughts that I have.

 

I can't argue the thought that the National Anthem being played at events or the Pledge of Allegence being spoken in school doesn't fall into the 'ritual' category, and will be the first to admit that if either are played when I am home, I do not stand.  But I think the difference is this, when I am home or somewhere else outside of large events and the National Anthem is played, I may not stand, but I can gurantee my thoughts are focused on the service members around the world, past, present, and future.  This may stem from my time in the Army or my continued work in the military community, and by no means am I insinuating this should be the thoughts in everyones mind, just expressing what my thoughts are.  Now when it comes to large events, like sporting events, where there is a large gathering of people, I never collected statistical data here, just from what I can remember from being a spectator at many events, before the National Anthem is played, there is usually some mention of the military, maybe honoring someone present at the event, one singing, a quick mention of a specific unit, or the announcement of the color guard (military or other profession), whatever it is, in most cases the military is somehow associated with the singing of the National Anthem.  So I absolutey stand, not for the 'ritual' of it, not because the flag is waving, but to show respect to those that have or are currently serving around the world.  Most people I have talked to, whether they have served or not, have had similar thoughts on the military being tied in with the National Anthem.  Again, not saying anyone reading this should feel that way, i'm talking about those that I know.

 

At the end of the day, people have the right to do these things, and everyone else will form their own opinions.  I have mixed emotions on these topics as stated above, and could probably argue either side, but if I was in uniform inside one of those stadiums, and someone approached me, regardless of race or the reason why, and I seen them kneeling during the National Anthem, I would use my right to just walk away.

 

Gus

Great Post Gus....I did 5.5 yrs in The AirForce, and feel very similar thoughts...I did time in Thailand and in Da Nang in the close of the Vietnam conflict...and I also Stand when its played..those that dont have that right...I also have the right to disagree with thier position...I put my life on the line for that right....

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

I'm not sure I get your point here. 

Okay... I guess I have to talk louder to reach you way up there in the frozen north.  

Maybe it just means that your "idea" of raising kids to respect human rights isn't a new one, and it's possible to show respect for the flag and country through standing for the anthem and saying the pledge of allegiance and still actually understand and live by the principles that those symbols stand for.  

[70sSanO]

1 hour ago, Abu3baid said:

are you seriously upset that he threw money at it?  Instead of what?  Like digging with a shovel?  

So, you want him to print out fliers for example and go staple them to poles instead of donating money that can be used to print millions of brochures or to hold community conferences, or to fly in experts ect..  Come on now.. It's not even close, of course donating money is going to push the cause a lot further than him going out and doing the work with his hands.

Finally, I would never hold it against him when he decided to take that stance.. Does it really matter that he wasn't doing anything back 5 years ago?  Or if he wasn't doing anything up until yesterday?  Arguments like this one have me puzzled.  

Sorry 

Yep.  That is what I am saying.  People really committed to a cause are involved in the cause and are a part of the solution.  He had an off-season.  What did he do that was meaningful for his cause other than throw money at it and then tell everyone what he did?  I don't follow Kaepernick so I have no idea if he just spent his off season having fun, injury rehab, or learning how to play the game again.

Sorry but I know too many people who are involved in their cause and don't stand on the sidelines (pun intended) and watch.

I agree that it is good to fund a cause, but without personal involvent it is not more than a charitable donation.

John

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Okay... I guess I have to talk louder to reach you way up there in the frozen north.  

Umm...yeah...way to reinforce a stereotype, ha ha, "clearly you don't speak 'Murican, so I'll just speak louder!"

I'll settle for clearer, it is after all, written discourse.

 

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Maybe it just means that your "idea" of raising kids to respect human rights isn't a new one, and it's possible to show respect for the flag and country through standing for the anthem and saying the pledge of allegiance and still actually understand and live by the principles that those symbols stand for.  

I never said it was new, nor did I say it was my idea. But nice job on reframing my comments to suit your POV. So, are you saying that everything is tickety-boo, and as long as everyone stands up for the anthem we're good? No issues here in the US of A (or Canada for that matter, because I'm not going to pretend that we don't suffer from the same malaise) , everyone move along? Love it or leave it?

 

[70sSanO]

I think what hurts Kaepernick the most is this seemingly new found cause.  This doesn't mean he wasn't vehemently upset about problems in the Black community for a longer period of time.

However in 2012 and 2013 you are trying to lead your team to the Super Bowl and a young Trayvon Martin is gunned down and the gunman is acquitted and you are standing for the anthem it does raise questions.  If any case brought the problem to national attention that was it.

Not saying he doesn't have the right to sit, but it does seem odd that now that he is an overpaid backup qb and didn't get the trade he wanted he decides on this controversial way to protest.

Just one more example how both sides of every issue in the country are trying finding ways to split the people apart rather than find a bridge and viable solutions.

John

Edited September 16, 2016 by 70sSanO

[iacas]

4 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

Well he wasn't doing a heck of a lot last January or February (HaHaHa) March?, April?, etc.

Yep.  But that's how it is done.  Don't actually use your notoriety in these communities, and the publicity that would follow, just throw some money and let someone else actually do your passion to stand against oppression.

Kind of like paying a faster player to golf for you to protest slow play.  Colin is either in or out on this one.

John

Wow.

So you're mad at him for:

a) raising public awareness of what he thinks is an issue
b) putting a lot of money where his mouth is.

He did use his "notoriety" to do a. Then he used his resources to do b.

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Except that CK stated that he did it because he could not respect a country that supported injustice.  What is that if not disrespect?  In his case it isn't just the act, but the intent behind it that's misguided.

So, wait… what?

Rich, you said before you thought the way he protested was disrespectful.

Now… if I'm reading that right… you think that CK saying "I can not respect a country that supports injustice" is itself disrespectful? To whom, exactly?

What if I said "I can not respect a golfer who cheats"? That's disrespectful to whom, exactly?

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

I contend that the country does no such thing. There may be individuals and even some screwed up, misguided organizations which espouse beliefs which no intelligent, reasoning person could support.  But that is not the stand, nor is it the direction that this nation takes or supports.  That is where his protest heads the wrong direction.  He seems to be trying to take a few isolated and highly publicized incidents and turn them into a blanket condemnation of all law enforcement organizations. If that isn't what he intends, then maybe he needs to make a clearer statement than what he has done so far.  To me he just seems confused and as poorly informed as I am - maybe more so.

So if he doesn't single out things with enough specificity, you just tune him out entirely? Is that your argument now?

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Okay... I guess I have to talk louder to reach you way up there in the frozen north.

Dude.

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

Maybe it just means that your "idea" of raising kids to respect human rights isn't a new one, and it's possible to show respect for the flag and country through standing for the anthem and saying the pledge of allegiance and still actually understand and live by the principles that those symbols stand for.  

It's a form of protest, Rich.

Protesting, like "raising kids to respect human rights," is also not new. Hell, it's probably significantly older, since the idea of basic human rights is a relatively recent thing, seeing as how ancient times had serves and beheadings and gladiators and all manner of crap.

Just now, 70sSanO said:

However in 2012 and 2013 you are trying to lead your team to the Super Bowl and a young Trayvon Martin is gunned down and the gunman is acquitted and you are standing for the anthem it does raise questions.  If any case brought the problem to national attention that was it.

So he can't reach a breaking point where "enough is enough"?

Once you've let one thing go, you can't ever raise that type of point again?

Just now, 70sSanO said:

Not saying he doesn't have the right to sit, but it does seem odd that now that he is an overpaid backup qb and didn't get the trade he wanted he decides on this controversial way to protest.

So, I'm confused. Doing all of this benefits CK… how exactly? BLM isn't handing out sponsorship money.

[14ledo81]

8 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Wow. Pretty damn sure that's not how MLK would have viewed this situation. 

The "darkness" is all the scorn, derision, anger and hatred being leveled at Kaepernick for trying to bring an issue of social justice to light. Just listen to the glee in the voices of those who celebrate whatever repercussions that Kaepernick may face for his stance and actions.

How 'bout this for a quote - Instead of teaching our kids to stand up for flags and anthems, teach them to stand up for social justice and humanity. 

How about teaching them to respect all people??  And pick a way to stand up for social justice and humanity that does not cause offense?

5 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I think many would disagree with this assessment.  Not that Canadians wouldn't also be offended, but at the assumption that he is showing disrespect.  Quietly taking a knee (or sitting, as he was previously) is not the same as intentionally butchering the Anthem, like Roseanne Barr did awhile back, or booing the other countries anthems like sometimes happens in hockey.  Those actions are disrespectful to everybody around you, nobody would disagree, but a quiet protest isn't like that.

Clearly some people have taken offense and believe he is showing disrespect.  

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

Clearly some people have taken offense and believe he is showing disrespect.  

I'd love to see a Venn diagram with two items…

1. People who are offended by CK's sitting during the national anthem.
2. People who think the world is going soft and too politically correct and we should all stop being so offended by stupid things.

Edit: oh, here, I found one:

[Valleygolfer]

10 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

How about teaching them to respect all people??  And pick a way to stand up for social justice and humanity that does not cause offense?

Clearly some people have taken offense and believe he is showing disrespect.  

Treat people nicely maybe, respect is earned. Secondly, why, again, must everyone think or feel the same. Saying he doesn't have the right to do what he did would be like raising a fit and telling you that you can't feel like he disrespected the country.

[70sSanO]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Wow.

So you're mad at him for:

a) raising public awareness of what he thinks is an issue

Public awareness???  With the way the media, especially network news, have covered these events 24/7 you would have to be in a coma to not have already been aware long before Kaepernick decided to use his approach.  Especially the network news panels where a half a dozen people argue back and forth for hours.

Then again, there are parts of Pennsylvania that do not have access to modern technology... lol

John

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

Then again, there are parts of Pennsylvania that do not have access to modern technology... lol

Well he's got a good enough understanding of "modern technology" to run/operate this website, be a programmer, design Analyzr and to have worked for Apple 

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

Public awareness???  With the way the media, especially network news, have covered these events 24/7 you would have to be in a coma to not have already been aware long before Kaepernick decided to use his approach.  Especially the network news panels where a half a dozen people argue back and forth for hours.

Then again, there are parts of Pennsylvania that do not have access to modern technology... lol

Really? That's your tactic?

[Ernest Jones]

9 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

How about teaching them to respect all people??

I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. Unless you're suggesting that flags and anthems are people? Either we aren't understanding each other, or that's a strawman.

9 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

And pick a way to stand up for social justice and humanity that does not cause offense?

Protest doesn't really work that way. Someone will always be offended because protest is a demand for change, and there is usually a party who does not want to see that change. I suppose he could have quietly protested in his own home so as not to upset anyone, but that's not likely to be very effective, is it?

Are you offended by these guys?

How about this guy?

 

You seem to like quoting MLK, he offended lots of people, are you ok with him but not Kaerpernick?

MLK offended tons of people, to the point that he was assassinated.

Looks like he sure pisses off these guys...or at least their bosses were pretty darn pissed.

 

9 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

Clearly some people have taken offense and believe he is showing disrespect.  

Yep, and IMO, those people are either too "symbol minded" or they stand on the wrong side of social justice. 

[Abu3baid]

11 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

Yep.  That is what I am saying.  People really committed to a cause are involved in the cause and are a part of the solution.  He had an off-season.  What did he do that was meaningful for his cause other than throw money at it and then tell everyone what he did?  I don't follow Kaepernick so I have no idea if he just spent his off season having fun, injury rehab, or learning how to play the game again.

Sorry but I know too many people who are involved in their cause and don't stand on the sidelines (pun intended) and watch.

I agree that it is good to fund a cause, but without personal involvent it is not more than a charitable donation.

John

I'm not sure what your gettIng at, but let me be clear if I was a supporter of a cause, it is not enough for me to give people who are working at it 10m usd?  

For my contribution to be meaningful I'm better off keeping that money in my account and going door to door or cold calling?

this argument is just falling apart John, don't you see that?

10 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. Unless you're suggesting that flags and anthems are people? Either we aren't understanding each other, or that's a strawman.

Protest doesn't really work that way. Someone will always be offended because protest is a demand for change, and there is usually a party who does not want to see that change. I suppose he could have quietly protested in his own home so as not to upset anyone, but that's not likely to be very effective, is it?

Are you offended by these guys?

How about this guy?

 

You seem to like quoting MLK, he offended lots of people, are you ok with him but not Kaerpernick?

MLK offended tons of people, to the point that he was assassinated.

Looks like he sure pisses off these guys...or at least their bosses were pretty darn pissed.

 

Yep, and IMO, those people are either too "symbol minded" or they stand on the wrong side of social justice. 

Nice post.

[14ledo81]

35 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with my post. Unless you're suggesting that flags and anthems are people? Either we aren't understanding each other, or that's a strawman.

 

 

No, I am not suggesting flags and anthems are people.  Nor would I hold a piece of cloth or a song to be more important than a person.  To some though, that flag and song mean a lot.  They take it as a personal affront when someone disrespects it.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

 

 

You seem to like quoting MLK, he offended lots of people, are you ok with him but not Kaerpernick?

MLK offended tons of people, to the point that he was assassinated.

Looks like he sure pisses off these guys...or at least their bosses were pretty darn pissed.

 

MLK preached love, forgiveness, and light.  Kaepernick wears pig socks???

 

 

I'll sum up my whole response with something I have stated before in this thread.  It is not about his cause to me, it is about how he is going about it.  When I started this thread, it was not meant to be a thread on BLM (I think we already have those), it was meant to specifically discuss his action, regardless of what the meaning of his protest is.

I think it is possible you are mistaking my disagreement with Kaepernick as me being against his cause.  Again, the cause has nothing to do with it for me.  He could be protesting that we need every lake in WI to change to a 50'' limit on muskies (something I think would be great), and I would still be against the way he is going about it.

[newtogolf]

I've read a lot of what's been said here by both sides and we seem to be going off in tangents that are missing the main points;

Everyone here seems to agree that it's acceptable to protest peacefully, regardless of the cause.  Though some believe there are times and locations where peaceful protests should not be conducted.

1. Some of those who believe that the Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem are important rituals / traditions also feel it's inappropriate to peacefully protest during these times due to it being disrespectful to those who serve(d) in the military.
    
2. Some question the timing and motivation of Colin Kaepernick to stage these protests at the beginning of this season.  Some believe the timing of him losing his starting job at QB could be a catalyst for him wanting to draw more attention to himself since he's never previously made mention of his resentment towards our country.
    
3. Some believe the "cause" CK is peacefully protesting is divisive and misguided and don't believe it's a worthy cause to warrant disrespecting the flag, Pledge or National Anthem.

When it comes down to it, everyone needs to really look inside themselves and determine why they are offended by CK's protests.  

I initially believed I was offended 90% due to the reasoning in #1 and 10% of #2 but then after reading more, looking at some of your comments I realized that if someone else was protesting for another cause that I really believed in and supported would I be as offended and I honestly couldn't say I would be.  So it turns out my issues are more about #2 and #3 which means I change my position even though I still question CK's motives I respect his right to do what he is.

It was a good mental exercise and enlightening so I encourage you all who are offended by CK's protests to work through it for yourselves if you haven't already.  

[Elmer]

[Ernest Jones]

23 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I've read a lot of what's been said here by both sides and we seem to be going off in tangents that are missing the main points;

Everyone here seems to agree that it's acceptable to protest peacefully, regardless of the cause.  Though some believe there are times and locations where peaceful protests should not be conducted.

1. Some of those who believe that the Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem are important rituals / traditions also feel it's inappropriate to peacefully protest during these times due to it being disrespectful to those who serve(d) in the military.
    
2. Some question the timing and motivation of Colin Kaepernick to stage these protests at the beginning of this season.  Some believe the timing of him losing his starting job at QB could be a catalyst for him wanting to draw more attention to himself since he's never previously made mention of his resentment towards our country.
    
3. Some believe the "cause" CK is peacefully protesting is divisive and misguided and don't believe it's a worthy cause to warrant disrespecting the flag, Pledge or National Anthem.

When it comes down to it, everyone needs to really look inside themselves and determine why they are offended by CK's protests.  

I initially believed I was offended 90% due to the reasoning in #1 and 10% of #2 but then after reading more, looking at some of your comments I realized that if someone else was protesting for another cause that I really believed in and supported would I be as offended and I honestly couldn't say I would be.  So it turns out my issues are more about #2 and #3 which means I change my position even though I still question CK's motives I respect his right to do what he is.

It was a good mental exercise and enlightening so I encourage you all who are offended by CK's protests to work through it for yourselves if you haven't already.  

Good. Better to be honest with yourself. I applaud your ability to look deeper at why you feel the way you do.