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Coming over the top and how to get inside out


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New to the forums and any advice would be greatly appreciated!

I'm about a 15 handicapper and I've always struggled with slicing my driver. My irons go pretty straight and I can even manage a draw sometimes, but my driver is almost always a slice. At one point, I managed to make it into a nice power fade with good distance, but these days, it's a slice and I lose tons of distance.

I know my problem is coming over the top and not rotating my arms enough to square the face, but I've never been able to get rid of it. Recently, I've had a little success with trying to keep my back towards the target as long as possible and this seems to help with allowing my arms to fall into the pocket. Another thing I've been experimenting with is a full backswing so that at the top, my club is parallel to the ground. I typically always had a short backswing stopping at about 10 oclock. With the full backswing, I notice great adds to my distance and better ball flight. 

Do you think that if I start practicing on the full backswing, I'll have more time to rotate my hands and get the clubface square with my driver? For my irons, should I also do this full backswing, or is a shorter backswing better? I've noticed that most pros do not do a full backswing on most iron shots.

Also, any other advice on helping me create an inside out swing and getting rid of this dreaded slice would be greatly appreciated!

 

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6 minutes ago, lmkhl said:

Thanks!

Do you think the full backswing would hurt or better my chances of trying to come inside out and turning my hands over? 

I am not one of the swing doctors on the site, but I would think that a full back swing vs. an abbreviated one would make a difference.

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Not an expert, but for me one of the easiest and most effective ways of imrpoving my ball contact (specially those days when nothing seems to work) is to shorten the swing. Guaranteed.

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23 hours ago, lmkhl said:

Thanks!

Do you think the full backswing would hurt or better my chances of trying to come inside out and turning my hands over? 

In my mind, proper sequencing of the forward swing is what produces the swing path I want.  For me (maybe not for you), I practice concentrating on turning my hips as my initial forward swing move.  I tend to swing too far back at times, so reducing my backswing length is something else I work on.  

For most people who come "over the top", one of the first forward moves is either arm or shoulder movement, getting ahead of the lower body.  However, you could be totally different.  We have no idea WHY you come over the top, you probably don't have a good idea either.  "Over the top" is usually a symptom, not a cause. Get some instruction, either in person or by posting a video, and work to find and correct the cause.

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23 hours ago, lmkhl said:

 

Do you think the full backswing would hurt or better my chances of trying to come inside out and turning my hands over? 

My instructor had me take a bigger backswing with the driver and it helps me (at least at the range - still way too tense on the course).

Although he didn't specifically say this, I assume it's because the lower body, upper body, and arms swing down in the right sequence. With a shorter backswing the arms get ahead of the body on the downswing... Or something like that. I'm sure somebody here will correct me.

I feel your pain. If I could hit a driver I might actually be good at this game.

 

 

Edited by Kalnoky
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Im not much of a swing guy, but from my observation players that hit a lot of slices with longer clubs do so because they spin themselves out and across the ball with their shoulders. Its like the upper half does all the work and it seems like they just pop up like a cork at impact. I dont have a tip for a fix, but i find that sometimes just knowing what you're doing wrong can lead you to your own answers. 

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On September 22, 2016 at 10:27 AM, lmkhl said:

I know my problem is coming over the top and not rotating my arms enough to square the face.

Do you think that if I start practicing on the full backswing, I'll have more time to rotate my hands and get the clubface square with my driver?

Maybe I just don't have the knowledge to understand the concept, but if you make an appropriate rotation of the left forearm on the backswing would it not be just a natural squaring on the downswing and continued rotating on the follow through?

I have never considered making a conscious and deliberate amount of rotation of the forearm on the downswing. I can't imagine the timing necessary to do this. Someone with ability way beyond mine.

John

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Like you my natural drive shape (irons too) is a Slice. I intensionally aim left between 10/15 yards.

I was trying to hit a draw with my driver too because i wanted more distance. This weekend i played 36 holes and i messured all my drives with google maps after the rounds.

The result is that when I hit my slice i average 259 yards with a dispersion of 50 yards wide.
The average of the drivers i hit a draw averaged 266 yards with a dispersion of 70 yards wide.

In my opinion the 7 extra yards but more dispersion it not worth it. 

In your case ill prefer to keep trying to hit that power fade to gain more distance but keep hitting your natural shot shape.   

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On 9/24/2016 at 9:08 PM, 70sSanO said:

Maybe I just don't have the knowledge to understand the concept, but if you make an appropriate rotation of the left forearm on the backswing would it not be just a natural squaring on the downswing and continued rotating on the follow through?

I have never considered making a conscious and deliberate amount of rotation of the forearm on the downswing. I can't imagine the timing necessary to do this. Someone with ability way beyond mine.

It's not a conscious timing of each increment of release, but I've found a significant difference in results between a quick from the top early release vs. a conscious 'waiting to hit' feel on the downswing.

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3 hours ago, natureboy said:

It's not a conscious timing of each increment of release, but I've found a significant difference in results between a quick from the top early release vs. a conscious 'waiting to hit' feel on the downswing.

I understand that releasing (unhinging) the wrists early (from the top???) will have a significant impact if you end up flipping.

I'm referring to rotating the forearm (per OP's post) to square the club face.  Just trying to figure out how a deliberate rotation is done apart from a natural result of a proper rotation of the forearm on the backswing.  Maybe I'm just dense.

John

Edited by 70sSanO
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42 minutes ago, 70sSanO said:

I understand that releasing (unhinging) the wrists early (from the top???) will have a significant impact if you end up flipping.

I'm referring to rotating the forearm (per OP's post) to square the club face.  Just trying to figure out how a deliberate rotation is done apart from a natural result of a proper rotation of the forearm on the backswing.  Maybe I'm just dense.

John

Naw! You ain't dense! Golfers have been trying to figure that out since golf was invented. Some of them do, and they go on to become very good golfers. Many of them don't, and they go on to become like the rest of us. Stuck in the crap!

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21 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

I'm referring to rotating the forearm (per OP's post) to square the club face.  Just trying to figure out how a deliberate rotation is done apart from a natural result of a proper rotation of the forearm on the backswing.  Maybe I'm just dense.

Gotcha. It wasn't clear to me from @lmkhl's OP whether his slice started straight, started left, or started right and then curved right. The first two would indicate more of a problem with path than face closure to me.

Personally I don't consciously think about face closure / forearm rotation. Squaring the face on good swings just happens with the club's release and the positioning of my hands and arms, supported by my shoulders through impact.

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For me, if I don't have a full backswing, my hands and arms are already ahead of the lower body on the downswing leading to "over-the-top" slice.  I always make sure my shoulder is fully turned on the backswing to avoid this over-the-top swing which produces slice.

If you want to avoid over-the-top swing, you must have full backswing, one where the back of the shoulder faces the target.  If you don't have that full backswing, you already have your hands/arms ahead of the lower body leading to slice.

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To the OP's point, there's no way for us to know whether or not a longer backswing will help. Depending on your tempo, it might help get your various parts "synced up" in the progression of the downswing. Only you can determine that.

However, I have a golf buddy that I can use as a demonstration. His backswing is plenty long! In fact his backswing gets longer when he actually goes to hit the ball, which is the opposite of most golfers I've looked at. He reaches way back there! His problem is that he "lays the club off" at the top of the backswing, pointing the club behind him. Once he gets it there, he's screwed! He ends up "outside in", wiping across the ball resulting in anything from a little push fade to a flat out slice!

He blames it all on not releasing his hands through the ball. I figure if he did that he'd hit a dead pull, which he does on occasion, so he may have somewhat of a point.

Oddly enough, or maybe not, he only does this with his longer clubs, Driver, 3 Wood, long hybrid. His iron game is very sharp, and I'd love to be able to pitch and chip like him!

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