Anyone Else Have This Experience?

[Marty2019]

I'm taking lessons at an indoor facility.  The instructor seems pretty good.  He has me working on one thing at a time, which is good. 

The first lesson was about getting proper shoulder tilt.   I went to the driving range afterwards and noticed an immediate improvement in my ball striking.

The second lesson was about flattening the club at the top of the backswing.  I understood what he was saying.  I've seen it before.  I managed to do it within the confines of the indoor facility with the net 10 feet away.   So I'm thinking what a great ball striker I'm going to be, how impressed all my friends are going to be, and so forth, but when I got to an actual driving range later that day, and tried to execute that flattening maneuver at the top of my backswing, I could not make solid contact to save my life.   Most of my shots were fat, and none of them were solidly struck.   And I could not stop hitting fat to save my life! 

It was the most humiliating experience I've ever had on a driving range.  It was so depressing. 

Anyone else have an experience like that?  Did you just persevere?   Did everything finally click for you?  

 

 

 

[iacas]

It sounds like you were not following the 5S of effective practice… one of those is "success."

And not success necessarily hitting good golf shots, but success in practicing what you're supposed to be practicing.

The other "S"s help to achieve success, and they include "slow" and "short." You seem to have the "specific" thing down.

Though, just being honest, I doubt you've fully ingrained the "shoulder" thing from your first lesson.

[Marty2019]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

It sounds like you were not following the 5S of effective practice… one of those is "success."

And not success necessarily hitting good golf shots, but success in practicing what you're supposed to be practicing.

The other "S"s help to achieve success, and they include "slow" and "short." You seem to have the "specific" thing down.

Though, just being honest, I doubt you've fully ingrained the "shoulder" thing from your first lesson.

That's good advice.  Thanks. 

[DaveP043]

In my experience, its relatively common to struggle at first to consistently integrate changes in a swing.  If you read some of the My Swing threads, you'll see guys who take a long time and a lot of effort to ingrain the "new" mechanics into their everyday swing. You'll read about guys who move to a subsequent "priority piece", and then have to go back a bit to reinforce a previous priority.  Making changes to improve your swing doesn't necessarily follow a smooth path of improvement.  As @iacas mentions, success isn't always measured by hitting good shots, you probably hit some good shots before you decided to change things.  Success is consistently making the desired change.  If you can do that well, your ball-striking will improve, but its very seldom a "light-bulb" kind of moment.  

[Groucho Valentine]

No, not really. Im sure I've hit some horrendous shots when I'm trying to do something new in my swing. But generally, when I'm at the course, I'm there to play. I leave any mechanical stuff for the practice tee. Thats where you should ingrain it if you can. If you fall back into some things you dont want in your swing while you play, thats just natural. Be persistent with your practice and the rest will take care of itself. 

[iacas]

Heck, I've been working on the same thing for four or five years now.

Granted, most of the other things in my swing are pretty solid… but still. Change takes time. I get better all the time, but still have setbacks and small leaps forward.

I hate weekly lessons, unless it's the "personal trainer" type method. I'll write up a blog post about this here soon.

1 minute ago, Groucho Valentine said:

No, not really. Im sure I've hit some horrendous shots when I'm trying to do something new in my swing. But generally, when I'm at the course, I'm there to play. I leave any mechanical stuff for the practice tee. Thats where you should ingrain it if you can. If you fall back into some things you dont want in your swing while you play, thats just natural. Be persistent with your practice and the rest will take care of itself. 

He didn't go play golf; he was talking about trying to practice at the range.

[JonMA1]

10 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

Anyone else have an experience like that?  Did you just persevere?   Did everything finally click for you?  

Don't know if this is relative, but while my indoor swing has improved over the last few years, the swing I take to the course has not - at least not anything close to a permanent change.

I suspect the prolonged periods of improved golf were a result of getting closer to my indoor swing before slipping back into bad habits.

Trying to persevere. What other choices do we have?

Keep at it @Marty2019. Good luck.

[shortstop20]

On 10/24/2016 at 9:26 AM, Marty2019 said:

I'm taking lessons at an indoor facility.  The instructor seems pretty good.  He has me working on one thing at a time, which is good. 

The first lesson was about getting proper shoulder tilt.   I went to the driving range afterwards and noticed an immediate improvement in my ball striking.

The second lesson was about flattening the club at the top of the backswing.  I understood what he was saying.  I've seen it before.  I managed to do it within the confines of the indoor facility with the net 10 feet away.   So I'm thinking what a great ball striker I'm going to be, how impressed all my friends are going to be, and so forth, but when I got to an actual driving range later that day, and tried to execute that flattening maneuver at the top of my backswing, I could not make solid contact to save my life.   Most of my shots were fat, and none of them were solidly struck.   And I could not stop hitting fat to save my life! 

It was the most humiliating experience I've ever had on a driving range.  It was so depressing. 

Anyone else have an experience like that?  Did you just persevere?   Did everything finally click for you?  

 

 

 

There isn't a single shot you can hit on a range that hasn't been hit before, so don't worry about being embarrassed. 

[Buckeyebowman]

And how long was the transition time between these events? I'd remind you that Tiger Woods took two years to make a major swing change. Don't get in a hurry!

If you have faith in your instructor then just keep working at it. If it really bothers you, tell him about it! If he's really good, he will understand and set you right!

[gregsandiego]

On 10/24/2016 at 7:26 AM, Marty2019 said:

I'm taking lessons at an indoor facility.  The instructor seems pretty good.  He has me working on one thing at a time, which is good. 

The first lesson was about getting proper shoulder tilt.   I went to the driving range afterwards and noticed an immediate improvement in my ball striking.

The second lesson was about flattening the club at the top of the backswing.  I understood what he was saying.  I've seen it before.  I managed to do it within the confines of the indoor facility with the net 10 feet away.   So I'm thinking what a great ball striker I'm going to be, how impressed all my friends are going to be, and so forth, but when I got to an actual driving range later that day, and tried to execute that flattening maneuver at the top of my backswing, I could not make solid contact to save my life.   Most of my shots were fat, and none of them were solidly struck.   And I could not stop hitting fat to save my life! 

It was the most humiliating experience I've ever had on a driving range.  It was so depressing. 

Anyone else have an experience like that?  Did you just persevere?   Did everything finally click for you?  

 

 

 

And worse.

Sometimes it will "click" and then one day out of the blue you'll have trouble with fat shots (or for me grounders) again. Otherwise we'd be pros right?

But what do you mean by flattening? Do you mean a full back-swing to where the club is horizontal to the ground ?

[Marty2019]

5 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

And worse.

Sometimes it will "click" and then one day out of the blue you'll have trouble with fat shots (or for me grounders) again. Otherwise we'd be pros right?

But what do you mean by flattening? Do you mean a full back-swing to where the club is horizontal to the ground ?

It means to shallow the downswing plane.   I tend to come over the top, so shallowing my downswing plane will produce less of an outside in, over the top swing. 

Sergio Garcia does it.   Forget the commentary, just watch what he does with the shaft at the start of the downswing.  It flattens; the clubhead drops down, the elbow tucks in, the entire body rotates hard. 

Sergio Garcia Slow Motion

 

 

7 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

And how long was the transition time between these events? I'd remind you that Tiger Woods took two years to make a major swing change. Don't get in a hurry!

If you have faith in your instructor then just keep working at it. If it really bothers you, tell him about it! If he's really good, he will understand and set you right!

The lesson was 10 AM and I went to the range at 4:00 in the afternoon. 

I think I was just trying too much too soon.  Perhaps I need to transition a little and not go whole-hog Sergio Garcia right off the bat.  I have played 18 holes since then and struck the ball pretty well, but I wasn't trying to make this flattening move while I was playing.  I understand the principle and I'm just using a little of the feel of it and that has put me back to hitting the ball fairly well. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Marty2019

[carpediem4300]

if your striking the ball well why are you trying to flatten anything at the top? not a criticism just a question :)

[Marty2019]

3 minutes ago, carpediem4300 said:

if your striking the ball well why are you trying to flatten anything at the top? not a criticism just a question :)

When I say I am striking the ball fairly well, it's based on my own personal standard, which is playing the forward tees, shooting in the mid-80s almost every round.  I want to break 80.  That requires more consistent ball striking, much better approach shots, more birdie opportunities. 

Also, my instructor had me working on better shoulder tilt, and according to him, if I get better shoulder tilt, I'm going to need to flatten my swing a little. 

AND, as far as I understand it, flattening at the top would bring my right elbow in and enable me to use more body rotation to get more power.   PLUS, flattening at the top would get my swing more on plane so I no longer come over the top, and I would strike the ball more squarely.  

 

[carpediem4300]

Makes sense to me, best of luck then

[RandallT]

On 10/24/2016 at 10:26 AM, Marty2019 said:

I'm taking lessons at an indoor facility.  The instructor seems pretty good.  He has me working on one thing at a time, which is good. 

The first lesson was about getting proper shoulder tilt.   I went to the driving range afterwards and noticed an immediate improvement in my ball striking.

The second lesson was about flattening the club at the top of the backswing.  I understood what he was saying.  I've seen it before.  I managed to do it within the confines of the indoor facility with the net 10 feet away.   So I'm thinking what a great ball striker I'm going to be, how impressed all my friends are going to be, and so forth, but when I got to an actual driving range later that day, and tried to execute that flattening maneuver at the top of my backswing, I could not make solid contact to save my life.   Most of my shots were fat, and none of them were solidly struck.   And I could not stop hitting fat to save my life! 

It was the most humiliating experience I've ever had on a driving range.  It was so depressing. 

Anyone else have an experience like that?  Did you just persevere?   Did everything finally click for you?  

This sounds pretty much like what I've been going through this season. My lessons show that I'm very steep from the transition on the downswing. We have worked hard on ways for me to flatten at the top. In fact, there's a thread here on the topic:

There are times when I feel like I'm making progress on it, but that's typically hitting balls in a very slow motion- or just in a mirror. In slow motion, it still feels somewhat awkward, so I'm missing a key somehow. I think I need to see an instructor physically to get me over this hump. If I get my swing to a moderate speed, the form breaks down and I have near 0 lowpoint control. Fats/thins. Upon review in video, I'm steep again- even when I feel like I'm flattening. Plus my swing gets long again, even when  I feel like it is shortened.

I'm just persevering though, as I'm always thinking progress is just around the corner. Until the past couple years, I've never taken lessons (and never improved past a bogey golfer), so I'm determined to just put in the time. I will say that I've never been so keenly aware of the motions involved with a swing. So that's good. Once I can get over this hump, I think I'll be able to have a swing that is more consistent and reliable. I just need to break through this and allow myself to trust letting the club to drop to a flatter position from the top.

For what it's worth, there are a couple folks in that thread above who have conquered this. So it's definitely possible.

 

[nevets88]

A little late in answering this, but in addition to @iacas's and @DaveP043's answers, one way to take the sting to your ego due to bad shots is to use video. If I hit a bad shot and the video shows the swing is obviously different than your pre-lesson swing, that you're actually making that change - flattening the shaft, syncing up your lower body upper body better, completing your shoulder turn, whatever that is - that takes a lot of the negative feelings of the bad shot away. So you think, OK, I'm starting to do the new move. Now, I'll keep doing it, I'll try and make better contact slowly.

Making a change is like going about brushing your teeth with your non dominant hand or driving on the other side of the road. It's not going to be instant. You'll make mistakes. You keep doing it and doing it and pretty soon it'll be automatic.

 

[Marty2019]

2 hours ago, RandallT said:

This sounds pretty much like what I've been going through this season. My lessons show that I'm very steep from the transition on the downswing. We have worked hard on ways for me to flatten at the top. In fact, there's a thread here on the topic:

There are times when I feel like I'm making progress on it, but that's typically hitting balls in a very slow motion- or just in a mirror. In slow motion, it still feels somewhat awkward, so I'm missing a key somehow. I think I need to see an instructor physically to get me over this hump. If I get my swing to a moderate speed, the form breaks down and I have near 0 lowpoint control. Fats/thins. Upon review in video, I'm steep again- even when I feel like I'm flattening. Plus my swing gets long again, even when  I feel like it is shortened.

I'm just persevering though, as I'm always thinking progress is just around the corner. Until the past couple years, I've never taken lessons (and never improved past a bogey golfer), so I'm determined to just put in the time. I will say that I've never been so keenly aware of the motions involved with a swing. So that's good. Once I can get over this hump, I think I'll be able to have a swing that is more consistent and reliable. I just need to break through this and allow myself to trust letting the club to drop to a flatter position from the top.

For what it's worth, there are a couple folks in that thread above who have conquered this. So it's definitely possible.

 

You've pointed me to a great thread.  Thanks.  

One thing I discovered by looking at some videos is that part of the reason I am not executing this move successfully is that it requires me to rotate my body harder and sooner than I have been.   I'm hitting fat because my impact position is too closed.   So I worked on that at the range this morning, and had more success than last time. 

It's definitely going to take a lot more practice because I think my old swing had several offsetting errors, and I can't fix my swing without correcting all of them. 

But I think it's definitely worth while, because the times I manage to execute this flattening move successfully, the ball strike feels so much more sold and powerful. 

 

 

[carpediem4300]

Just my 2 cents having had a little gander through that stubbornness thread and your thread here reference to the steepness, im slightly thrown by the phrase "increase shoulder tilt" and "flatten the club at the top", perhaps im missing which part of the swing you are trying to increase tilt? one would thing the more you increase tilt on the back swing the more you increase steepness of the club (if nothing else changes), or have I read that into this wrong?

Having been since the dawn of time a flat swinger of the club with level shoulders at the top of the back swing I worked very hard on increasing the tilt and increasing my club steepness, ironically I took it too far the other way.

 

the fix for me (may not be the same as you) was two fold, 1) distance stood from the ball, I was always too far away, my setup routine now includes checking this is to make sure it does not promote a flat back swing, 2) a 1 piece takeaway and maintaining the "triangle" right through to the top of the back swing,......If I hold that triangle whilst maintaining the correct distance from the ball it automatically tilts my shoulders more, and maintaining the triangle stops me going too flat or too steep,......obviously what works for me may not work for you, but maybe worth a thought