lost ball marker

[Papa Steve 55]

We had very wet greens this weekend. One of the guys in our foursome marked his ball with a plastic marker. He came over and chatted with me while a couple other guys chipped on. I knew I was away so walked away to try my putt. it missed but I tapped in. That's when this guy said he couldn't find his marker. As near as we can figure when he tapped it down it stuck to the bottom of his putter, and fell off somewhere around the green. We came to a mutual agreement where we thought he was and let him play out.

Any issues with that?

[DrvFrShow]

No. No issues. I mean, what else were you going to do?

[Rulesman]

Which decision do you think fits? 20-1/5.5 or 20-1/6

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-5.5

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-6

[turtleback]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

Which decision do you think fits? 20-1/5.5 or 20-1/6

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-5.5

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-6

One thing that distinguishes both those decisions from the OP's situation is that in both those decisions the marker was found.  In the OP's case the marker was never found.  Since the marker is, in some sense, the alter ego of the ball, is there any merit in looking at it like a lost ball?

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Which decision do you think fits? 20-1/5.5 or 20-1/6

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-5.5

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-6

I wouldn't have thought that pressing down the mark would be considered part of the act of marking, but I see that I'm wrong.  The OP doesn't really say WHEN the player pressed down the mark, and that may be the deciding factor.  If its right away, then there's no penalty.  If it was later, perhaps to make sure it didn't interfere, I'd say the first decision should apply.

[David in FL]

5 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Which decision do you think fits? 20-1/5.5 or 20-1/6

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-5.5

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-1-6

My first question, in response to the "any issues with that?" question, would be whether or not they were playing match play or stroke play?  If match play, then if they were in doubt as to the correct ruling, but came to an agreement as to how to proceed, then all is fine, and even in a tournament, no claim could later be filed.

With respect to the ruling itself, since they're only guessing at what caused the lost mark, I don't see how it could definitively be attributed to the specific act of marking the ball.  I've seen people inadvertently lift their ball without having marked it at all, and then wonder where their mark disappeared to.  As such, in this case, I'd rule under 20-1/5.5.  1 penalty stroke.

I'm curious to hear how the actual certified RO's would rule in this case though...

 

[Fourputt]

First I ask what is possible.  What could have caused the marker to move?  In this case I see 2 possibilities:  either the marker stuck to the bottom of the putter, or one of the players stepped on it and it stuck to his shoe.  

It is necessary to determine if it is possible that the player himself stepped on it, because that would be a one stroke penalty, since that was definitely not part of the act of marking, and the marker or ball must be replaced.  If there is the slightest possibility that this could be the cause (and no evidence is found to dispute it) then the penalty must be assessed.

If it can be determined from the player's movements that he could not have stepped on it then I'd rule that it was either in the act of marking (stuck to the putter) or stepped on by a fellow competitor (moved by outside agency).  In either case it must be replaced with no penalty.  (If they were playing a match and it was determined that the opponent moved it, then it would be a one stroke penalty on the opponent.)

I can't say if my ruling would be the most correct, but I can't think of any other fair or logical ruling to this scenario.  The marker didn't just walk away without assistance.

[bkuehn1952]

Another possibility if you were playing with the guy I joined a few years ago.  He saw my quarter marking my spot well away from the hole.  He remarked as he bent over, "hey, someone left a quarter."  He was not joking around and would have pocketed my "mark." Fortunately he felt the need to tell everyone about his good fortune.

[turtleback]

Maybe all this is an argument for using one of the poker chip style markers whenever possible.  I cannot imagine losing one, or stepping on it by accident.  I have a nice one I got when I played Kenny Perry's course that I used from the time I played there until I stopped playing a year ago.  I did keep a small marker in my pocket for those occasions where my mark would have been near someone's line.

[DaveP043]

16 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Maybe all this is an argument for using one of the poker chip style markers whenever possible.  I cannot imagine losing one, or stepping on it by accident.  I have a nice one I got when I played Kenny Perry's course that I used from the time I played there until I stopped playing a year ago.  I did keep a small marker in my pocket for those occasions where my mark would have been near someone's line.

I'd suggest its more an argument for watching what you're doing and where you're walking. 

[newtogolf]

32 minutes ago, turtleback said:

Maybe all this is an argument for using one of the poker chip style markers whenever possible.  I cannot imagine losing one, or stepping on it by accident.  I have a nice one I got when I played Kenny Perry's course that I used from the time I played there until I stopped playing a year ago.  I did keep a small marker in my pocket for those occasions where my mark would have been near someone's line.

Poker chips work well when no one else is near your mark.  I use a poker chip with a smaller magnetic ball marker in the center, so I can pick the right one for the circumstances.  

[Papa Steve 55]

We were a foursome in a two best ball team competition. As it turned out, his par w/o a stroke would not have figured in our team score. I think the only way he would have stepped on the marker is while he was searching, but as we all know, you have a pretty good idea of where on the green you are, and that would have left the marker somewhere else on the green, or on his shoe. I doubt anybody else would have stepped on it, no one else was on that side of the green. He did walk off the green after he marked to chat with me and look at others putts. I'm reasonably certain the marker was in the rough somewhere around the green.

Based on what Rulesman posted, I think we did right.

[turtleback]

7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd suggest its more an argument for watching what you're doing and where you're walking. 

Spoken like someone who isn't old yet. 

[DaveP043]

19 hours ago, turtleback said:

Spoken like someone who isn't old yet. 

Hey, I passed 60 last January, I'd say I'm plenty old, but I do hope to get a whole lot older before I stop.

[Papa Steve 55]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Hey, I passed 60 last January, I'd say I'm plenty old, but I do hope to get a whole lot older before I stop.

60 is the new 30........ish