"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Robos said:

You have a hypothesis, that’s it.

You're wrong.

1 minute ago, Robos said:

You can’t tell me how much distance is lost.

Everyone is a bit different.

2 minutes ago, Robos said:

Then factor in the consistency of a simple vs complex swing. Pros aren’t terribly consistent (the traditional swing is hard!) and arguably many pros would benefit from a more repeatable swing.

Right, PGA Tour pros "aren't terribly consistent."

You don't seem to have read this, @Robos, and this is the last time I'm going to ask you to do so.

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

Now, @Robos, here are the rules for you going forth:

• It is on YOU to prove whatever you want to try to prove. We are under no obligation to do so, because the data is available and this stuff has already been borne out. Jim has failed to do anything of this sort.
• You will refrain from speaking about things you do not know or understand, which includes any and all guessing about my background, history, or the "biases" I may or may not have. You don't know me at all.
• You will respect the fact that we've been courteous to this point and return to being courteous yourself.

[boogielicious]

8 minutes ago, Robos said:

You have a hypothesis, that’s it. You suspect distance will be lost, but you have no data to substantiate it. You can’t tell me how much distance is lost. 

Please go to a simulator and try both swings and report back. Otherwise you are just trolling.

[Robos]

3 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Please go to a simulator and try both swings and report back. Otherwise you are just trolling.

Oh def I’m not trolling. I’m not a pro and we’re not debating the benefits for an amateur. My swing means nothing in this context. I have a horrible traditional swing and could drive 250 putting all I had into it. With the JV swing I can drive the same with less effort. But I’m comparing a poorly executed traditional swing to a less than perfect JV swing - so yeah my results are meaningless.

We’re debating if the JV swing could be used by pros. Consensus here is no but I remain skeptical without seeing data to prove it. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Robos said:

We’re debating if the JV swing could be used by pros. Consensus here is no but I remain skeptical without seeing data to prove it. 

It's not on us to get that data for you.

And one doesn't have to step off a 500-foot-tall cliff to know that it's not going to end well.

[boogielicious]

1 minute ago, Robos said:

We’re debating if the JV swing could be used by pros. Consensus here is no but I remain skeptical without seeing data to prove it. 

We’re not playing this game with you. We go out and test it and show you we lose 25% distance using the JV method. You come back and say we are doing it wrong or biasing the test. No thanks.

It is up to you to collect the data or you are in fact a shill for JV and are trolling.

 

[Robos]

2 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

We’re not playing this game with you. We go out and test it and show you we lose 25% distance using the JV method. You come back and say we are doing it wrong or biasing the test. No thanks.

It is up to you to collect the data or you are in fact a shill for JV and are trolling.

 

Not a shill - again don’t care what the results are just interested in the results. 

I’m not good enough to collect the data nor do I know anyone who is. That’s why I’m hoping a scratch golfer will try it out. I didn’t consider the bias accusations part - I hope nobody would intentionally skew results since there isn’t much of a motive to do this beyond curiosity. Tho if it happens then I’ll just be misled which is fine for this.

[boogielicious]

Just now, Robos said:

Not a shill - again don’t care what the results are just interested in the results. 

I’m not good enough to collect the data nor do I know anyone who is. That’s why I’m hoping a scratch golfer will try it out. I didn’t consider the bias accusations part - I hope nobody would intentionally skew results since there isn’t much of a motive to do this beyond curiosity. Tho if it happens then I’ll just be misled which is fine for this.

Stop asking. No one is biting.

There are plenty of other areas on the site for you to engage in. Perhaps you could start a My Swing thread in the Member Swings section and we could help.

[Robos]

16 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Perhaps you could start a My Swing thread in the Member Swings section and we could help.

Hah! I’m beyond hope for a traditional swing. Probably worked on it for 2-3 years and could never fix my over the top swing - just couldn’t get my body to do what I wanted despite lessons and countless drills. It would be nice having a swing that my friends don’t make fun of, but I just don’t have the golf athleticism.

[Vinsk]

49 minutes ago, Robos said:

We’re debating if the JV swing could be used by pros. Consensus here is no but I remain skeptical without seeing data to prove it. 

So why aren’t you skeptical that JV method will produce the same distance even more as Jim proclaims? We have years and years of the best golfers in the world using conventional swings ( some unconventional parts but still using conventional mechanics ) and thousands of hours of research and experiments, monitors showing the best ball striking occur...and then we have Jim claiming they’re all wrong and his method is superior based on human anatomy and physics...which he refuses to provide data for. 

@iacas is far, far from biased. He gladly welcomes challenges to any hypothesis but you better have your data on the table. There’s tons of data on this site discussing the mechanics and physics of the conventional golf swing.

4 minutes ago, Robos said:

It would be nice having a swing that my friends don’t make fun of

Who cares.? .it’s your game you don’t want to be made fun of.😉

Edited February 18, 2020 by Vinsk

[billchao]

10 minutes ago, Robos said:

robably worked on it for 2-3 years and could never fix my over the top swing

And there you go, the reason why this swing works for you. Jim Venetos swing shifts the baseline out, counters your tendency to swing in. You're probably still swinging over the top except with everything shifted at setup you end up closer to being on plane.

[Robos]

7 minutes ago, billchao said:

And there you go, the reason why this swing works for you. Jim Venetos swing shifts the baseline out, counters your tendency to swing in. You're probably still swinging over the top except with everything shifted at setup you end up closer to being on plane.

Oh yeah, big time. I still have a tendency to come over the top. With the JV swing I am supposed to just ignore my arms and let them do their thing. That’s incredibly difficult for me to trust so my body refuses to do it. Ordered a mevo+ - I think once I can start to look at flight data I can start to trust and free my arms. But yeah, some people are naturals at golf, I’m definitely not one of them.

[Vinsk]

9 minutes ago, Robos said:

Oh yeah, big time. I still have a tendency to come over the top. With the JV swing I am supposed to just ignore my arms and let them do their thing. That’s incredibly difficult for me to trust so my body refuses to do it. Ordered a mevo+ - I think once I can start to look at flight data I can start to trust and free my arms. But yeah, some people are naturals at golf, I’m definitely not one of them.

I completely understand this. I have zero talent for golf. There’s still things you have to get down with the JV swing. It’s not quite as simple as he says. He was a division I golfer and a low handicapper ( he claims..I can’t imagine him lying about that) so he has some things well grooved many don’t. For example he says ‘ don’t think about anything, stay still and swing along the position of your body.’

That’s not that simple. Many of us Manipulate our arms/wrists even hands during the swing. You’ll notice he hinges or does something with his wrists on his backswing that may be natural for him but not us.

Some people aren’t flexible enough to move their lead arm back and up while keeping their lead hip completely still. And alignment can be tricky as well. I actually played with @billchao using the JV method and he saw many times how the alignment really messed up an otherwise well struck ball.

[ncates00]

53 minutes ago, Robos said:

With the JV swing I am supposed to just ignore my arms and let them do their thing

That's incredibly bad advice.  Your hands and arms swing the club, so why would you "ignore" them?  That's also where most of your speed comes from.

The JV method isn't inherently bad for coming over the top.  The best way I've found to plane the club better is to get the club going up the elbow plane--back, up, and behind you on a diagonal/hoola-hoop plane, and then bringing the club right back down that same plane.  I used to have a flat and inside backswing.  On my bad days, I'd reroute and come over the top steeply.  On my good days, I could squat, jump, early extend, and somehow sling the club underneath--leading to fat, thin, pushes, and hooks.  If you're struggling coming over the top, you might want to feel the Furyk/Moore/Woolf upright swing and come under it.  Eventually you should just plane it up the elbow plane and come back down it.

2 hours ago, Robos said:

scratch golfer will try it out

Why would a scratch golfer try this method out if they're already achieving success?  Further, the results would be skewed because of the very fact that the person is an existing scratch golfer--you prove nothing.  That would be like taking LeBron and making him play a different basketball position--he's already a great basketball player and through his talent and ability alone he would likely succeed.  Similarly, the same thing happened with Tiger and all of his different swings.  Tiger made all of them work because he's flipping Tiger Woods.

The only way to test your theory is to take someone who invests in the JV method and sticks with it.

[Vinsk]

@Robos I know this is a long read but this is a good example how the process works here. Originally @iacas is discussing hitting down on the ball with the driver...circa 2010 I believe. He then presents research along with examples and data in which he changes the idea and believes amateurs would be better off to actually hit slightly upwards with the driver.

Pros can really get away with hitting down because they have sufficient swing speed and solid contact damn near every time. They can afford to lose a little distance because they swing so damn fast. When it’s bomb city they hit up.

Now Jim has a YouTube video where he clearly states hitting up with the driver to get higher launch and less spin is wrong because one can reduce spin simply by shallowing their swing. No explanation of physics, no charts, no ball flight/spin data and no mention of swing speed. 

[Robos]

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I completely understand this. I have zero talent for golf. There’s still things you have to get down with the JV swing. It’s not quite as simple as he says. He was a division I golfer and a low handicapper ( he claims..I can’t imagine him lying about that) so he has some things well grooved many don’t. For example he says ‘ don’t think about anything, stay still and swing along the position of your body.’

That’s not that simple. Many of us Manipulate our arms/wrists even hands during the swing. You’ll notice he hinges or does something with his wrists on his backswing that may be natural for him but not us.

Some people aren’t flexible enough to move their lead arm back and up while keeping their lead hip completely still. And alignment can be tricky as well. I actually played with @billchao using the JV method and he saw many times how the alignment really messed up an otherwise well struck ball.

Yup, I still have problems with alignment. “Get more closed” he says, but I don’t really feel like pointing to 10 o’clock pre-pivot to point to 2 o’clock hoping that I draw back to 12. It’s incredibly confusing. I reached the point where I’m okay with a fade miss vs getting more closed.

His answer is like - There is no stepping up to 10 o’clock to pivot etc - don’t aim your shot, just feel it bro. 

Don’t aim? Yeah, umm, I’ll pass on that advice since I don’t want to be digging balls out of the woods all day.

[Robos]

7 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Why would a scratch golfer try this method out if they're already achieving success?  Further, the results would be skewed because of the very fact that the person is an existing scratch golfer--you prove nothing.  That would be like taking LeBron and making him play a different basketball position--he's already a great basketball player and through his talent and ability alone he would likely succeed.  Similarly, the same thing happened with Tiger and all of his different swings.  Tiger made all of them work because he's flipping Tiger Woods.

The only way to test your theory is to take someone who invests in the JV method and sticks with it.

The question is how much distance is lost with a properly executed JV swing vs a properly executed traditional swing. 
 

A scratch golfer who’s interested in the results would be willing to test. They could become competent enough with the JV swing in probably a few hours - maybe even in 1hr.
 

Unless paid, I agree 100% no scratch golfer  will try the JV system beyond curiosity of the test results.

6 hours ago, Vinsk said:

@Robos I know this is a long read but this is a good example how the process works here. Originally @iacas is discussing hitting down on the ball with the driver...circa 2010 I believe. He then presents research along with examples and data in which he changes the idea and believes amateurs would be better off to actually hit slightly upwards with the driver.

Pros can really get away with hitting down because they have sufficient swing speed and solid contact damn near every time. They can afford to lose a little distance because they swing so damn fast. When it’s bomb city they hit up.

Now Jim has a YouTube video where he clearly states hitting up with the driver to get higher launch and less spin is wrong because one can reduce spin simply by shallowing their swing. No explanation of physics, no charts, no ball flight/spin data and no mention of swing speed. 

So this means @iacas Is a better teacher of the swing and has a deeper understanding?

I won’t disagree with that.

I’m just disagreeing that you’ll lose distance with the JV swing. I haven’t personally seen it happen; I haven’t heard any n=1 anecdotes that it happens, but I’m interested in seeing data to show it does happen.

[Vinsk]

25 minutes ago, Robos said:

So this means @iacas Is a better teacher of the swing and has a deeper understanding?

 

No. That’s not what I meant to show. I’m saying @iacas and many others on this site don’t just throw claim out there and that’s that. There’s reasoning to it and discussion along with some data showing results. You stated earlier he was ‘biased’ being an instructor. He’s not. Well, he’s biased to facts, data and science. If you say ‘you’re wrong’ you better have factual reasons to base your arguments. Jim doesn’t. 
 

My point from early on was this: We already have the conventional swing style producing the highest level golf. We have people making money ( some a living)  off long drives and they hit up on the ball. If Jim is going to claim the conventional teachings are wrong and his is better, it’s his responsibility to prove this. If he’s going to say one can achieve pro level golf with his swing, that’s his responsibility to prove. It’s not @iacas’s or any other instructor’s responsibility to prove it isn’t. There aren’t tour level golfers with this swing. None. Or at least Jim hasn’t shown any. And there is no data showing the numbers that this swing is every bit if not more powerful than the conventional swing method. Again, that’s Jim’s responsibility to prove.

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, Robos said:

Hah! I’m beyond hope for a traditional swing. Probably worked on it for 2-3 years and could never fix my over the top swing - just couldn’t get my body to do what I wanted despite lessons and countless drills. It would be nice having a swing that my friends don’t make fun of, but I just don’t have the golf athleticism.

I takes a lot of work to correct swing issues. Many of us have played with physical limitations. I am better now, but have played through shoulder and knee injuries that required surgery. They weren't caused by golf. @billchao played with me on my last round in 2018 where my knee just stopped working. 

Changes can be made though and no one is beyond hope. I could be as simple as just shortening your backswing, which is less limiting and produces better contact. I really encourage you to post a video in the Member Swings section and let us help.