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RussUK

"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

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First off, i'm surprised this topic is still ticking along. Been a while since i posted it.

The lad i used to play golf with did take on the Jim Venetos swing (or at least his take on it) and it did help him to hit the ball better. Not having to shift his weight or use the lower body much helped him loads.

I left the company we worked at in 2017 so no idea if he still using it (or still golfing for that matter).

Back when we played together and he showed me the swing i tried to get into the preset and it didn't take long for my left hip to start aching and the whole "stillness" thing just seemed impossible (for me anyway).

Like we always say, if it works for someone and gets/keeps them playing then thats a good thing.

Depsite @Jim Venetosnot (at present) answering Erik's questions i'll still give him a thumbs up for helping people play the game as i think that is much more important than the actual swing they teach.

For me, focusing on a particular area of my swing (getting the weight forward), rather than a whole swing "method" was key in getting my swing firing on all cylinders.

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1 hour ago, RussUK said:

For me, focusing on a particular area of my swing (getting the weight forward), rather than a whole swing "method" was key in getting my swing firing on all cylinders.

I picked up on this thread, watched the video and decided to try it on the range. I hit several good shots but found I was digging too much turf and snatching the club too far inside on the backswing. Probably too much weight on my left, knee in wrong position, etc. What it did for me though was make me cognizant of my need to waggle a bit in my setup which gives me the right (for me) preset left weight and shaft lean to begin my backswing. I don't need any more thoughts to consider than that. Best, -Marv

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On 9/19/2019 at 11:33 AM, TRUCKER said:

🤦‍♂️...What a dumb post. Take a look at the handicaps posted by the members here. Do you really think 97% of the people on this forum will ever be playing at the highest level in state/national, amateur or professional tournaments?

Take a look at the tag below my avatar, the one that says, "TST Staff/Mod" - I am well familiar with the regular users here and their handicaps. The truth of the matter is that at least 97% of the entire golfing population will never play in state or national level amateur tournaments or professional tournaments at any level. 

That doesn't, however, mean that a golfer should handicap themselves by using a swing with well-noted and described limitations. @Jim Venetos has so far refused to take me up on my bet because he knows that his swing is incapable of the same things that can be achieved with a "traditional" golf swing. I'm willing to back my claims with both my money and my personal reputation, but it appears the same cannot be said about the man teaching the non-traditional golf swing. He doesn't have enough confidence in his method to even take a bet that's skewed heavily in his favor.

On 9/19/2019 at 11:33 AM, TRUCKER said:

 Every time somebody comes on here with different swing instruction, they are attacked, and end up leaving the forum. There should be a disclaimer when joining here that states, "Don't bother with any ideas unless the long standing members agree with them".

People are not attacked. Their methods are analyzed and discussed. If your swing instruction method has glaring weaknesses, such as the Venetos golf swing, then those weaknesses will be pointed out.

To further emphasize the fact that no attacking has occurred here, look no further than the owner of the site himself noting some of the advantages of the Venetos swing. It was noted that the swing is one that would be faster for someone to pick up than a traditional golf swing, and simply stated that it had limitations for golfers who want to improve their game as much as possible.

On 11/17/2016 at 6:26 AM, iacas said:

Not a bad plan if you want to become quasi-proficient faster. Especially if you can swing your arms fast with little body motion. Without hip turn, he also gets very little shoulder turn.

...

Kinda depends on your goals in golf. If you just want to get proficient and then stay at that level, go for it.

 

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Ok...in all honesty I’ve actually taken up this swing due to my struggles with the conventional method. There’s no question that for me it has been a significantly easier swing to manage and I have a nice draw. I haven’t seen any significant loss in distance but then again I wasn’t a long hitter to begin with. I’ve worked with Jim and although he seems to be a real nice guy who really wants to help people, it’s a little disappointing he won’t put numbers up with a monitor.

All this ‘kinesiology Dr.’ ‘biomechanically sound’ stuff really needs the data to be presented. He’s a down to earth guy but you can’t just brush off people who ask for the data.  A 118mph swing speed with this swing seems very difficult. I wish he would get on a monitor, make his swing and show his swing speed and carry distance. 

I’ve made good progress  with this swing but there’s concern that the swing speed will limit my longer iron play. 3-6i I struggle with the most and I fear it’s due to not generating enough club speed to properly hit those irons...especially the 3-4 irons.

So I’m a bit on the fence for the long run but still going with it as my shanks have greatly diminished. I dunno...for anyone interested I’ll keep posting as I progress.

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@Vinsk, as you likely know. the swing is a lot like my pre-set drill. It's not quite as exaggerated in that one way, and you don't actually stop where I ask students to stop in the pre-set drill, but it's a bit like that.

So, all you'd do next if you want to "graduate" from this swing (which as @Pretzel notes I say can be a good starting point or a good "basic proficiency" thing), you'd simply exaggerate the weight forward a bit less and add in more and more rotation. Since this swing loads your arms across your chest a bit more than we might otherwise suggest, you may have to learn a little bit differently there, but basically, it's just those two things to start to bleed into a more "traditional" swing that uses the body's pivot a bit more to support the arm travel and generate speed.

@david_wedzik and I, as you know, feel that the arms generate the most speed in the golf swing. But the weight transfer (a bit, not much) and the body's pivot (much more so than weight transfer) generate the bulk of what's left after the arms.

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1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Ok...in all honesty I’ve actually taken up this swing due to my struggles with the conventional method. There’s no question that for me it has been a significantly easier swing to manage and I have a nice draw. I haven’t seen any significant loss in distance but then again I wasn’t a long hitter to begin with. I’ve worked with Jim and although he seems to be a real nice guy who really wants to help people, it’s a little disappointing he won’t put numbers up with a monitor.

All this ‘kinesiology Dr.’ ‘biomechanically sound’ stuff really needs the data to be presented. He’s a down to earth guy but you can’t just brush off people who ask for the data.  A 118mph swing speed with this swing seems very difficult. I wish he would get on a monitor, make his swing and show his swing speed and carry distance. 

I’ve made good progress  with this swing but there’s concern that the swing speed will limit my longer iron play. 3-6i I struggle with the most and I fear it’s due to not generating enough club speed to properly hit those irons...especially the 3-4 irons.

So I’m a bit on the fence for the long run but still going with it as my shanks have greatly diminished. I dunno...for anyone interested I’ll keep posting as I progress.

Having seen your swing in person (and we did talk about it), you're really only doing the setup part of this swing and it's kind of messed up your alignment, not to mention your path is shifted out too far as well.

I'm not going to tell you not to do it if it's working, but IMO you should stop trying to play those low pull-draws because they don't hold greens and you hit beautiful high soft draws that end up left of your target simply due to aim. So basically your good swings are kind of wasted, you know what I mean?

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2 hours ago, billchao said:

you're really only doing the setup part of this swing

That’s all there is to his swing though is the setup. From there your lower body is still in the backswing. I of course haven’t mastered it but I don’t rotate my hips on the backswing and I attempt to just swing on the line of my shoulders based on the position of my body. I only open my shoulders after impact when done correctly. The low pull draws are poor strikes on my behalf. But yes...my alignment is difficult for me with those nice high draws. I like what Erik said and I need to mention this to my Evolvr coach Stephan  as I’ve been absent due to trying this method. I’m still curious how the hell Jim can swing 118mph with this method.

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I think I played with someone today that did this swing, as best as I can understand it. No idea if it was specifically the "Venetos" swing, or just something he arrived at some other way. (I remembered this thread, but didn't remember Jim's name, or I would have asked)

He was in his late 50's and said he had spinal issues that limited his rotation severely. He said his swing (he called it "pure arms", but ofc there is some rotation as well) is the best way he could make contact after his back problems.

I'm not making a position on some of the debates herein, but it made me think of this thread.

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7 hours ago, bones75 said:

I think I played with someone today that did this swing, as best as I can understand it. No idea if it was specifically the "Venetos" swing, or just something he arrived at some other way. (I remembered this thread, but didn't remember Jim's name, or I would have asked)

He was in his late 50's and said he had spinal issues that limited his rotation severely. He said his swing (he called it "pure arms", but ofc there is some rotation as well) is the best way he could make contact after his back problems.

I'm not making a position on some of the debates herein, but it made me think of this thread.

Well...how did he do? Did he hit the ball well? Driver? 

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2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Well...how did he do? Did he hit the ball well? Driver? 

he played pretty well.  He was very accurate with his driver, ~200 yards w/ roll and playing what I would guess is like a 20-30 yard slice, but very consistent. Bogey golfer.

Not sure he is a good example to prove any argument about the swing. For one I'm not good at analyzing swings, so maybe it wasn't even the Venetos swing, it just looked like it to me (very little shoulder & hip rotation, weight dramatically forward).

I just thought that maybe the swing might be useful for those w/ a buncha fused vertebrae or something, as it seemed to work for him.

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30 minutes ago, bones75 said:

he played pretty well.  He was very accurate with his driver, ~200 yards w/ roll and playing what I would guess is like a 20-30 yard slice, but very consistent. Bogey golfer.

Not sure he is a good example to prove any argument about the swing. For one I'm not good at analyzing swings, so maybe it wasn't even the Venetos swing, it just looked like it to me (very little shoulder & hip rotation, weight dramatically forward).

I just thought that maybe the swing might be useful for those w/ a buncha fused vertebrae or something, as it seemed to work for him.

Ok. Well if he was playing a slice it wasn’t Venetos...or he was doing it wrong. Venetos is a draw shot as the core with an odd explanation of how to hit a fade when needed.

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2 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Ok. Well if he was playing a slice it wasn’t Venetos...or he was doing it wrong. Venetos is a draw shot as the core with an odd explanation of how to hit a fade when needed.

well then... that ends that thought!!! XD

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This thread keeps popping into my mind. This year has been pretty crap golf wise. Start of the year i was playing ok, not great but well enough to have fun. Just when i thought I was turning a corner I get diagnosed with Beurgers disease so golf stopped.

Towards the end of the summer i was allowed to start playing again, had a couple of par 3 rounds and (coupled with new irons) played well. However, as i'm now prone to getting inflamed kidneys I found the coiling/uncoiling painful.

Anyway, rather than give up playing I decided to at least have a more in depth look at the JV swing (plus seeing that @Vinsk has/is trying it convinced me it was ok to try it). It's pretty simple and repeatable providing you stay still and dont overswing ( I found my arms go to just over paralell to the ground) as if you go too far it's thin shot city!. Only been able to hit foam balls so no idea on distance yet (other than chipping, which is nice) but it feels surprisingly good and contact is decent. The main thing is the preset seems to take the pressure of the back so no kidney pain.

I know i dismissed it when my work colleague was using it but sometimes drastic situations call for drastic measures. Early days but i'll work on it over the winter. My goal now is to be able to play golf with my son and if an alternative swing allows me to do that it has to be worth a go?. Sure, i'd love to be swinging how I used to but I cant put my body through it anymore.

 

 

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Watching the video seems like a pretty common sense idea for a beginner golfer. That is one way of taking your body out of the equation once you preset the swing. Whatever you got to do to make your game better. To each their own!

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3 hours ago, RussUK said:

This thread keeps popping into my mind. This year has been pretty crap golf wise. Start of the year i was playing ok, not great but well enough to have fun. Just when i thought I was turning a corner I get diagnosed with Beurgers disease so golf stopped.

Towards the end of the summer i was allowed to start playing again, had a couple of par 3 rounds and (coupled with new irons) played well. However, as i'm now prone to getting inflamed kidneys I found the coiling/uncoiling painful.

Anyway, rather than give up playing I decided to at least have a more in depth look at the JV swing (plus seeing that @Vinsk has/is trying it convinced me it was ok to try it). It's pretty simple and repeatable providing you stay still and dont overswing ( I found my arms go to just over paralell to the ground) as if you go too far it's thin shot city!. Only been able to hit foam balls so no idea on distance yet (other than chipping, which is nice) but it feels surprisingly good and contact is decent. The main thing is the preset seems to take the pressure of the back so no kidney pain.

I know i dismissed it when my work colleague was using it but sometimes drastic situations call for drastic measures. Early days but i'll work on it over the winter. My goal now is to be able to play golf with my son and if an alternative swing allows me to do that it has to be worth a go?. Sure, i'd love to be swinging how I used to but I cant put my body through it anymore.

 

 

I think it’s definitely worth trying. I was enjoying this method. I became a bit frustrated with the long irons. I was a bit irked with JV in that he gives minimal instruction or demonstration of long irons or driver. I understand he has a system but he bases it on the old adage that it’s the short game that counts. He’s wrong of course but he’ll never admit/accept the research from Mark Broadie or LSW. And that irritated me. 
I feel my struggles with the longer irons were simply because I couldn’t generate enough swing speed to hit a 3-4-5i properly. 
And I threw JV a bone. I paid for his instruction and 3 months in it was still all about the 9i. And on his YouTube videos he never posts numbers. He can’t seem to understand you can’t just show yourself hitting a driver then say, ‘ 117mph swing speed.’ without any proof and then get testy when people ask for LM data.

He also repeatedly claims the ‘ Titleist Institute of Technology ’ has verified his swing mechanics? Zero data from that and again he just says follow my lead and expects everyone to believe him or they’re just being negative or difficult.

I also don’t buy the whole having ‘ 10 different swings for each club.’ I understand there are trajectories to consider as obviously there will be a lot of overlapping distances with that system. But come on, why would I ever hit a ‘1’ swing with a 3i? 
 

But I can say I enjoyed the nice draw I could produce with my short irons, mid irons too when struck well. Certainly a lot less to think about with this swing.

Edited by Vinsk

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13 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I think it’s definitely worth trying. I was enjoying this method. I became a bit frustrated with the long irons. I was a bit irked with JV in that he gives minimal instruction or demonstration of long irons or driver. I understand he has a system but he bases it on the old adage that it’s the short game that counts. He’s wrong of course but he’ll never admit/accept the research from Mark Broadie or LSW. And that irritated me. 
I feel my struggles with the longer irons were simply because I couldn’t generate enough swing speed to hit a 3-4-5i properly. 
And I threw JV a bone. I paid for his instruction and 3 months in it was still all about the 9i. And on his YouTube videos he never posts numbers. He can’t seem to understand you can’t just show yourself hitting a driver then say, ‘ 117mph swing speed.’ without any proof and then get testy when people ask for LM data.

He also repeatedly claims the ‘ Titleist Institute of Technology ’ has verified his swing mechanics? Zero data from that and again he just says follow my lead and expects everyone to believe him or they’re just being negative or difficult.

I also don’t buy the whole having ‘ 10 different swings for each club.’ I understand there are trajectories to consider as obviously there will be a lot of overlapping distances with that system. But come on, why would I ever hit a ‘1’ swing with a 3i? 
 

But I can say I enjoyed the nice draw I could produce with my short irons, mid irons too when struck well. Certainly a lot less to think about with this swing.

I agree with you there. The method is very simple and while the idea of having different shots for each club in the bag could be a good idea for the more advanced player, for the majority of players who would use this swing it seems unnecessary. If i need to hit it 100yds i'll hit a 56 wedge full rather than a 5 9 iron or whatever, having 10 swings per club over compliactes it for many people imo.

I do like Jim's videos as they are very down to earth and so far and the swing definately has merit especially for the right group of players (i'll count myself in that group). Where you suprised with the amount of power the swing had with it being essentially all arms?

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4 hours ago, RussUK said:

Where you suprised with the amount of power the swing had with it being essentially all arms?

I’m a believer in the arms being responsible for a lot of swing speed, but yes. It feels a lot less ‘movement’ was able to generate good power. However I began to think that my actual SS wasn’t really improving. It was the quality of strike. My conventional swing can be all over the face with an in to out and out to in path ( more likely out to in). With this swing I was almost always in to out and near the middle of the club face. So I think I was just hitting better shots. Again, JV would never provide any data from himself nor any students showing increases in SS. 
I don’t have a problem with having a 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 swing. It’s the ‘10’ different that seemed ridiculous to me. I’ll never use a 4i to hit the ball 20yds.

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6 hours ago, RussUK said:

If i need to hit it 100yds i'll hit a 56 wedge full rather than a 5 9 iron or whatever, having 10 swings per club over compliactes it for many people imo.

The problem with hitting wedges their full distance is that any slight change in dynamic loft has a bigger effect on the flight than a lower lofted club. 

There are times when I try to hit a full SW and it just has higher variance in the distance outcomes. I can club up two twice and just hit a 70% shot way more consistent. The more you do it, the more you get good at it. 

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