Do the Rules Significantly Contribute to Golf's Perception of Being Stuffy and Elitist?

[natureboy]

30 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

I think he is saying that a user who quits because they think the rules are too complex but who does not actually know the rules is in no place to speak-They are just giving an excuse.

It is like my grandkids telling me they do not want to go ice skating because they will not have fun but they have never been ice skating so they do not know what they are talking about.

Okay, I get what you and @Fourputt are saying if that agrees with what he intended. But in your example you get to drag your grandkids there anyway knowing it will grow on them or at least they won't hate it. People have to make a choice / effort to find golf unless their family is already involved. Relying on that family effect alone won't bolster involvement in the game.

Even if undeserved, perceptions can matter. The rules as presented to a new or prospective golfer may compound / add to a common outsider perception of golf as boring / stuffy and whether a casual tv viewer intrigued by the game itself decides to give it a try. Non-golfers crossing into the game have an impact on how well the industry does as a whole.

Edited November 30, 2016 by natureboy

[natureboy]

It seems several of you have formed an impression that because I see potential for updating the rules, that I'm against them. That's not the case. Pointing out that some see golf as 'boring and stuffy' doesn't mean I share the perspective. Golf is a fascinating challenging game. I do think the rules could be streamlined in structure and language so that would be one less element of the game that reinforces the 'boring and stuffy' perception held by many who don't have extended experience with the sport.

Below are some links that deal with the topic of attitudes toward golf. The rules aren't primary topics but 'golf rules' are mentioned in the survey responses and IMO likely reinforce the negative 'boring/stuffy' stereotype that seems to be a common thread through them.

The 'activity surveys' from Germany, France, & Italy were particularly interesting. Basically those who've done golf for a bit are less inclined to see it as boring and stuffy, while those outside see it much more strongly that way. That's the divide in perceptions. which jibes with my experience, that I've been trying to point out. There may be potential for rule streamlining (or at least explanation of the basics) to not reinforce that outside perception and encourage more to try it, stick with it for a bit, finally hit some good shots, and then get hooked.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/04/economist-explains-1

http://www.golf2020.com/media/61603/sms_inc__european_tour_complete_golf_activity_de_jun16.pdf

http://www.golf2020.com/media/61649/sms_inc__european_tour_complete_golf_activity_fr_jun16.pdf

http://www.golf2020.com/media/61614/sms_inc__european_tour_complete_golf_activity_it_jun16.pdf

http://ngfdashboard.clubnewsmaker.org/icfiles/3/49835/91495/99622/ef3d9aca280eb7da389a48d5/negativeperceptions.pdf

http://ngfdashboard.clubnewsmaker.org/Newsletter/7t7x0z5hpmy?a=5&p=2371779&t=410871

http://ngfdashboard.clubnewsmaker.org/Newsletter/5fc907kbnb7?a=5&p=2369715&t=410871

http://ngfdashboard.clubnewsmaker.org/Newsletter/cftx90p6cwn?a=5&p=2341869&t=410871

from Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jefffromm/2015/04/28/topgolf-wins-with-millennials-while-golf-industry-continues-to-reimagine-its-brand/4/#6b50c2375a51): "little change has occurred in regards to the brand of golf. It is still seen as a very traditional and formal sport, which does not typically align with a Millennial Mindset"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-want-to-play-golfuntil-they-try-it-1457379085

[iacas]

First, that's not my perception at all.

I also don't think the rules significantly contribute to the perception that golf is stuffy or elitist.

Almost none of the links you provided even have the word "rules" in them, and those that do don't mention the rules as a reason for the perception. The one article that mentions the rules the way you're suggesting says…

Quote

Third, golf has become harder to play. Since the 1990s golf-course designers have taken to building longer, tougher courses in order to put golfers and their equipment to the test. The sport’s growing difficulty and its 200-page rulebook make it a tough sell to new players.

That has no evidence to support it - it appears to be just the writer's opinion.

So, I think you have no evidence to support your claim that the rules are at all a significant factor in non-golfers seeing golf as stuffy or elitist.

[Phil McGleno]

17 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Okay, I get what you and @Fourputt are saying if that agrees with what he intended. But in your example you get to drag your grandkids there anyway knowing it will grow on them or at least they won't hate it. People have to make a choice / effort to find golf unless their family is already involved. Relying on that family effect alone won't bolster involvement in the game.

My grandkids had to make a choice-effort to find ice skating unless I was involved.-They are the same thing.

17 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Even if undeserved, perceptions can matter. The rules as presented to a new or prospective golfer may compound / add to a common outsider perception of golf as boring / stuffy and whether a casual tv viewer intrigued by the game itself decides to give it a try. Non-golfers crossing into the game have an impact on how well the industry does as a whole.

Rules are not presented to a new or prospective golfer.

I introduce a few hundred people to golf every year.-I tell them to tee the ball up everywhere but the putting green and throw the ball out of every bunker-Unless they want to hit out of it- and to play until it is not fun anymore on each hole or round.

You are just making stuff up.

I have never heard of someone saying the rules make golf elitist. Every sport has rules.

[iacas]

The first and fourth post are from the other thread. I merged them here as it was getting further and further OT over there.

[natureboy]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

So, I think you have no evidence to support your claim that the rules are at all a significant factor in non-golfers seeing golf as stuffy or elitist.

I don't think the rules are a significant factor, but a contributory / reinforcing factor to the outsider stereotype perception about golf that is clearly evident in the perceptions surveys and 'millenial studies'.

The activity surveys in the links do mention 'golf rules' which is vaguely defined. It may include the ROG, which is why I think it's worth actually assessing perceptions toward the ROG, including but beyond those who've become serious about the game.

Edited November 30, 2016 by natureboy

[woodzie264]

5 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

My grandkids had to make a choice-effort to find ice skating unless I was involved.-They are the same thing.

Rules are not presented to a new or prospective golfer.

I introduce a few hundred people to golf every year.-I tell them to tee the ball up everywhere but the putting green and throw the ball out of every bunker-Unless they want to hit out of it- and to play until it is not fun anymore on each hole or round.

You are just making stuff up.

I have never heard of someone saying the rules make golf elitist. Every sport has rules.

Well said

[natureboy]

4 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

My grandkids had to make a choice-effort to find ice skating unless I was involved.-They are the same thing.

Rules are not presented to a new or prospective golfer.

I introduce a few hundred people to golf every year.-I tell them to tee the ball up everywhere but the putting green and throw the ball out of every bunker-Unless they want to hit out of it- and to play until it is not fun anymore on each hole or round.

I have never heard of someone saying the rules make golf elitist. Every sport has rules.

Would the grand-kids have made that choice if you weren't involved holding the (wrong) perception that skating was lame/boring/etc? How would you have gotten them involved if you weren't able to make them try it?

Rules are presented to new golfers if they join a governing body association or if they watch the sport on tv.

That's an excellent introduction to golf. Seriously, well done.  But did you tell those folks that those were the rules, that they were 'playing golf', were they surprised at your leniency and say 'I thought you had to do such and such'?

Oh brother, I am not saying that having rules makes golf elitist. It's the perception of the rules from the inin

[iacas]

Just now, natureboy said:

I don't think the rules are a significant factor, but a contributory / reinforcing factor to the outsider stereotype perception about golf.

I don't. Not to a level worth discussing. Maybe an odd person here or there… and they'd likely find another reason not to play golf.

Just now, natureboy said:

It may include the ROG, which is why I think it's worth actually assessing perceptions toward the ROG, including but beyond those who've become serious about the game.

I don't.

The purpose of the Rules of Golf is not to cater toward those who don't play golf, but to cater toward those who do the best they can.

[Phil McGleno]

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Would the grand-kids have made that choice if you weren't involved holding the (wrong) perception that skating was lame/boring/etc? How would you have gotten them involved if you weren't able to make them try it.

I feel like you are being really dumb right now.

Plus who is to say they have the wrong perception?-Something can be fun to one person and dreadful to another.

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Rules are presented to new golfers if they join a governing body association or if they watch the sport on tv.

None of them do that.-And like they said in the other thread every sport has rules. Do people not play pickup football because they do not understand holding or pass interference or how onsides kicks work?

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

That's an excellent introduction to golf. Seriously, well done.  But did you tell those folks that those were the rules, that they were 'playing golf', were they surprised at your leniency and say 'I thought you had to do such and such'?

No. WHy would they say that?

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Oh brother, I am not saying that having rules makes golf elitist. It's the perception of the rules from the inin

Nobody is saying you did.

You are saying that golfs rules add to the perception that it is stuffy or elitist.

Nobody else agrees with you. It is that simple.

[natureboy]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

I don't. Not to a level worth discussing. Maybe an odd person here or there… and they'd likely find another reason not to play golf.

So why do streamlining efforts like the two codes keep popping up? Why do outside commentators frequently comment on 'complex rules'?

I'm not saying they are right, just that the perception exists. Why not make some effort to nullify it?

1 minute ago, iacas said:

The purpose of the Rules of Golf is not to cater toward those who don't play golf, but to cater toward those who do the best they can.

I never said cater to. I said consider, while maintaining the integrity of the game.

Not sure what you mean by 'those who do the best they can'?

[14ledo81]

7 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

I feel like you are being really dumb right now.

Plus who is to say they have the wrong perception?-Something can be fun to one person and dreadful to another.

None of them do that.-And like they said in the other thread every sport has rules. Do people not play pickup football because they do not understand holding or pass interference or how onsides kicks work?

No. WHy would they say that?

Nobody is saying you did.

You are saying that golfs rules add to the perception that it is stuffy or elitist.

Nobody else agrees with you. It is that simple.

I agree with him in a way.  I believe most sports rules are just as complex (or more) than golfs. For some reason though, I believe some people could think that golf rules are hard(er) to understand, and as such, a bit elitist.

[natureboy]

10 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Plus who is to say they have the wrong perception?-Something can be fun to one person and dreadful to another.

That's a completely valid point. But the point was about overcoming the perception of the thing to try it in the first place. Without your dragging or coaxing they wouldn't have actually known if it was fun for them or not. Perceptions can create barriers to giving it a try in the first place.

10 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

None of them do that.-And like they said in the other thread every sport has rules.

Do people not play pickup football because they do not understand holding or pass interference or how onsides kicks work?

It happens. I'd agree it's not most, but I'd trust the USGA on the actual percentage of folks who join with zero to only a marginal introduction to golf. Some people expect a group like the USGA to act as a kind of 'sport federation' that will help introduce them to the game. But most come in through family and friends.

I'd expect holding or pass interference to get called even in a game of 'touch'. Very few pickup games involve kicking in my experience. But that rule gets waived as a 'condition of competition'.

10 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You are saying that golfs rules add to the perception that it is stuffy or elitist.

Nobody else agrees with you. It is that simple.

Nobody on this site, maybe, but I don't think I'm alone in the wider world in thinking it may be a factor.

13 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

No. WHy would they say that?

Because many people even who haven't played a sport before have formed an impression or understanding (possibly misconstrued) of how it's normally played.

Edited November 30, 2016 by natureboy

[chilepepper]

The rules don't make golf stuffy or elitist......people do that and the only place I saw that was a CC I worked at in the 80's and that was only a few of the members.But thankfully I don't see that at the courses I play in several states and countries. The newcomer reading the Usga rule book might be a bit overwhelmed at first only because it covers a lot of stuff beyond the basic rules of play. Heck, an 8.5 X 11 " sheet of paper, printed both sides could cover the basic rules of play and be available for free at every course.

Edited November 30, 2016 by chilepepper

[sirsteveo55]

There is rules in...golf? My foot wedge is not a legal club? No wonder my handicap is so low. 

In all seriousness I disagree because when was the last time you heard a neutral zone infraction called in back yard football? 

Its like when my buddy tees up and in his setup his clubs hits the ball and everyone says 1 and laughs. No one cares because we're just out having fun and playing not trying to be an elitist or stuffy.

Only in an elite competition will the "elitist rules be enforced" new players won't be in the elite competition.

[Phil McGleno]

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

But the point was about overcoming the perception of the thing to try it in the first place. Without your dragging or coaxing they wouldn't have actually known if it was fun for them or not. Perceptions can create barriers to giving it a try in the first place.

Confirmed-You are being dumb. Non-golfers do not consult the rules before they decide not to play golf.

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

It happens.

Not really.

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I'd agree it's not most, but I'd trust the USGA on the actual percentage of folks who join with zero to only a marginal introduction to golf. Some people expect a group like the USGA to act as a kind of 'sport federation' that will help introduce them to the game. But most come in through family and friends.

That is not the job of the USGA.-And how many people join the USGA with only a marginal introduction to golf? Not many.

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I'd expect holding or pass interference to get called even in a game of 'touch'. Very few pickup games involve kicking in my experience. But that rule gets waived as a 'condition of competition'.

You are being dumb.-And missing the point. By a mile.

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Nobody on this site, maybe, but I don't think I'm alone in the wider world in thinking it may be a factor.

No, I am just going to say that you are alone because you seem to think you saying things is a valid argument.

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Because many people even who haven't played a sport before have formed an impression or understanding (possibly misconstrued) of how it's normally played.

You are still being dumb.

You would have to so simplify the rules just to appease two people per year that golf would not be golf anymore.

 

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, natureboy said:

So why do streamlining efforts like the two codes keep popping up? Why do outside commentators frequently comment on 'complex rules'?

They don't "keep popping up." That site hasn't been updated since 2013.

And, we must have a very different definition of "frequently."

29 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I'm not saying they are right, just that the perception exists. Why not make some effort to nullify it?

Because I don't care what an insignificant number of people think. And I agree with this:

4 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You would have to so simplify the rules just to appease two people per year that golf would not be golf anymore.

In other words, the "SimpleGolfRules.com" Code One would not change the perception at all. You'd have to make such significant changes to the Rules of Golf that the sport would be completely unlike the sport we have now.

Every major sport has a bunch of rules. I quoted rules from the NHL earlier. They have a 216-page (IIRC) rules book - it's longer than the Rules of Golf and it's printed on larger paper. So while I already don't care that an insignificant number of people have this perception, the fact that it's the wrong perception further increases my apathy toward this problem.

29 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I never said cater to. I said consider, while maintaining the integrity of the game.

Not possible.

29 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Not sure what you mean by 'those who do the best they can'?

Re-read it. You read it wrong. Pause after "those who do" or something.

And don't quote me or respond to me. This whole topic is stupid.

[natureboy]

12 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Confirmed-You are being dumb.

You are being dumb.

You are still being dumb.

So I guess you are proving my point about the double standard regarding insulting language from moderators toward members.

12 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Non-golfers do not consult the rules before they decide not to play golf.

They don't have to have personally consulted the rules prior to having formed a perception of them.

12 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

You would have to so simplify the rules just to appease two people per year that golf would not be golf anymore.

The rules aren't golf. They have changed over time, sometimes significantly, but the essence of the game has remained the same. I'm not arguing for changing the essential difficulty of the game.

Edited November 30, 2016 by natureboy