Why Isn't Golf Taught Like Skiing?

[mchepp]

55 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Just saw a slow-motion replay of Rory McIlroy hitting a driver. I wish I could post it here. It's flawless.

Nonsense. The nearest to flawless would probably be Tiger's driver swing in 2000. That said, even Tiger worried about being stuck. 

Funny thing is that the web is full of guys trying to copy Hogan. No idea why. If you want to copy a swing do Tiger in 2000. You'd be a far better golfer that way.

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Just saw a slow-motion replay of Rory McIlroy hitting a driver. I wish I could post it here. It's flawless. It's old hat to the announcers, but even they had a bit of awe in their voices. This is the way to hit a driver. Anyone who hits it differently may be getting the most out of their swing, but it's a deviation from Rory's tee shot. There is a way to hit a golf ball that is the correct way.

But is that the ONLY way to hit a golf ball that could be considered correct?  I'm a few decades older than Rory, and my body may be physically unable to do everything his does.  While I might be able to learn from his swing and get closer to his (as my instructors guide me on what part of my swing to fix next), I do not expect my swing to ultimately be exactly like his.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Now, if we try to achieve a repeatable swing, 

Minor point, but my swing is very repeatable. But it's not as good as it should be. 

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

then teaching should also be consistent. There is where the flaw is.

I've enjoyed this thread, and I think I can understand a desire to have instruction more standardized. 

But I've also learned a lot from this forum, and I've seen that much of what is given out as analysis and instruction on the Golf Channel, golf magazines, YouTube, etc., is either wrong or could be misapplied.

My concern is that even if it were possible to have a "standard" instruction format, it might be put together by the same instructors putting out suboptimal/incorrect info through these other venues.  Except now it would have the imprimatur of the PGA.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Is a putt fundamentally different than a medium iron?

Substantially so.

Sorry. I forgot to answer that before.

[No Mulligans]

It can be really hard to make a swing change that sticks, certainly even harder if you've played for a while.  I worked on keeping my head steady for about a year and I continue to work on that if video shows that I've regressed.  Something as simple as that can be hard.  Golf is hard.

My neighbor, who is a much higher handicap, doesn't have any problem with keeping his head steady.  He's got other problems (doesn't get his weight forward,  and he's a flipper).

We're all different.  That makes standardization difficult for golf.  

[Blackjack Don]

Can we try an experiment, Mulligans? Tell your neighbor to aim two inches in front of the ball and keep his left wrist straight. Nothing more. Send me an email about his results. At least he'll stop flipping.

:)

[CarlSpackler]

38 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Can we try an experiment, Mulligans? Tell your neighbor to aim two inches in front of the ball and keep his left wrist straight. Nothing more. Send me an email about his results. At least he'll stop flipping.

:)

It would be nice if it were that easy. It's not. You can't just "keep your left wrist straight". Believe me. I have tried. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Can we try an experiment, Mulligans? Tell your neighbor to aim two inches in front of the ball and keep his left wrist straight. Nothing more. Send me an email about his results. At least he'll stop flipping.

:)

The Golfing Machine has this concept of an Aiming Point. It's decades and decades old, and TGM has had and still has plenty of followers. It works - like I said above - as a band-aid. A week later the band-aid has fallen off.

You've said once or twice, IIRC, that you're listening to the feedback and considering it all with an open mind. I don't know that I believe you.

[Blackjack Don]

18 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

It would be nice if it were that easy. It's not. You can't just "keep your left wrist straight". Believe me. I have tried. 

Brother, do I know that. Now. What I've found out over the past six months is good golf is more left side than right side. I had such a weak left side that I could not swing a club with just my left arm alone. My wrist would not hold up. So I started doing it, swinging the club with my left wrist as straight as I could. Then I tried hitting balls with just my left arm, left wrist straight. It wasn't pretty. Still isn't, but I can now get the ball in the air sometimes, and straight. It was tough!

If you can't, or he can't, do this drill, I'd say that's a big part of the problem. It seems so simple, but the information is buried deep in most instruction I've watched and read. (Thank you, Bobby Clampett!) I'm completely convinced that Erik and his companions have it right with the 5 swing keys, head steady and flat wrist. I've watched countless golfers now on the range and course and haven't seen a single one with a collapsing left wrist who hits the ball consistently. I've heard "strong left side," but it meant nothing to me. Now, I see that it means a flat left wrist.

Stand in your living room and swing a wedge with your left arm. If you can follow through without your wrist "breaking," keep doing it.

Then, aim two inches in front of the ball. Amazing things happen.

:)

1 minute ago, iacas said:

The Golfing Machine has this concept of an Aiming Point. It's decades and decades old, and TGM has had and still has plenty of followers. It works - like I said above - as a band-aid. A week later the band-aid has fallen off.

You've said once or twice, IIRC, that you're listening to the feedback and considering it all with an open mind. I don't know that I believe you.

I listened to Bobby Clampett. lol 

A teacher last week fixed my grip. It helped, but I'm still trying to get comfortable with it. It certainly did strengthen my left wrist. I have plenty of video prior. Today I'll try to get new video with the changes I've been making and maybe start a swing thread. That should be interesting.

I'm sorry about the way I go about things. I have to apologize to every teacher. I am a terrible student. I push teachers to the limit of their patience, but I am dedicated to practicing and getting better. Believe me, anybody who can come up with the 5SKs is a voice I'm going to listen to. Even better if they are listening to me. The best teachers learn more than the student.

What do you mean by band-aid? That's an interesting remark.

[Groucho Valentine]

I suppose. I get what he's saying. But the fundamental problem i find with golf teaching is that its usually taught backwards. Which is full swing mechanics first, and everything else  second. The golf swing is an unnatural motion that works in three different axis, skiing is much different in that the techniques are using for different movements.  You're not the engine of movement in skiing like you are in golf. 

Personally, i always thought the techniquies of the game should be taught from greenside, then progressing back to the tee. But its usually taught in the other direction. Sometimes, that isn't teachers fault. Its just what their students want. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Groucho Valentine

[CarlSpackler]

1 minute ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I suppose. I get what he's saying. But the fundamental problem i find with golf teaching is that its usually taught backwards. Which is full swing mechanics first, and everything else game second. The golf swing is an unnatural motion that works in three different axis, skiing is much different. You're not the engine of movement in skiing like you are in golf. 

Personally, i always thought the techniquies of the game should be taught from greenside, then progressing back to the tee. But its usually taught in the other direction. Sometimes, that isn't teachers fault. Its just what their students want. 

I used to think that until I tried to teach my boy that way. He didn't care about putting unless he was making the ball go through a clown's mouth or a windmill. He just wants to hit the ball as far as he can and relatively straight. 

[Blackjack Don]

4 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

I used to think that until I tried to teach my boy that way. He didn't care about putting unless he was making the ball go through a clown's mouth or a windmill. He just wants to hit the ball as far as he can and relatively straight. 

Your son is an old soul. :)

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

What I've found out over the past six months is good golf is more left side than right side.

To you. To others (and I'm not being glib and referring to lefties), it's the opposite. Hogan wishes he had "three right hands," after all. You're discussing a feel. Feels vary. It's one of the reasons why teaching golf is difficult. I've told this story a few times: two players, back-to-back lessons, I had to teach them the same thing as their priority flaw, it just so happened. The odd thing was they had opposite feels as for how to achieve it.

8 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Now, I see that it means a flat left wrist.

FWIW we renamed that about four years ago to "Inline Impact." Not every player has a flat left wrist. Like Fred Couples. Or Phil Mickelson.

8 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

A teacher last week fixed my grip. It helped, but I'm still trying to get comfortable with it. It certainly did strengthen my left wrist. I have plenty of video prior. Today I'll try to get new video with the changes I've been making and maybe start a swing thread. That should be interesting.

Go for it.

A week for a grip change - a grip change - to feel comfortable, but you think a golfer should become competent in golf about as quickly or easily as they do in skiing?

8 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

I'm sorry about the way I go about things. I have to apologize to every teacher. I am a terrible student.

You said before you were an awesome, incredible student (I'm paraphrasing).

8 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

I push teachers to the limit of their patience, but I am dedicated to practicing and getting better.

Then why are you a 20+?

I don't mean that rudely. If you've gotten instruction and you're a good student and you've been at this awhile and it's so easy, why aren't you breaking 100 consistently? 90? 80?

Is it because golf instruction doesn't have a system like skiing, or is it more likely that it's because golf is way more difficult than skiing?

8 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

What do you mean by band-aid? That's an interesting remark.

It's a temporary fix. You can slap on a band-aid to get you through the round, when really you need stitches or something.

It's not the best metaphor, but it's slang for a "quick fix" type tip that doesn't hold up. Hitting the ball fat, but need to get through the round? Put the ball further back in your stance. Might work for the next 11 holes, but won't last.

5 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Personally, i always thought the techniquies of the game should be taught from greenside, then progressing back to the tee. But its usually taught in the other direction. Sometimes, that isn't teachers fault. Its just what their students want. 

We do teach some beginners that way. Clinics, for example.

But putting is boring. And very few people start golf by going to a bunch of clinics. Thus, they already have a "swing" of sorts.

And if they've played golf, then it's the full swing that's likely their biggest weakness.

[Blackjack Don]

8 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I suppose. I get what he's saying. But the fundamental problem i find with golf teaching is that its usually taught backwards. Which is full swing mechanics first, and everything else  second. The golf swing is an unnatural motion that works in three different axis, skiing is much different in that the techniques are using for different movements.  You're not the engine of movement in skiing like you are in golf. 

Personally, i always thought the techniquies of the game should be taught from greenside, then progressing back to the tee. But its usually taught in the other direction. Sometimes, that isn't teachers fault. Its just what their students want. 

Yes! This is what I was asking Erik about when I asked if there is a fundamental difference between a putt and a five iron. At the moment of impact, are they not the same?

I started teaching my wife. I first took her to the putting green and showed her how to putt with her left wrist straight. Then I took her over to the range, gave her a seven iron and had her hit the ball--or try to--with no more than a half swing, the same basic swing as a putt. Straight back and straight through with a flat wrist. She can now get it straight and in the air. We'll work up to a full swing eventually. But she enjoys what's she's doing now.

Since nobody agrees on the fundamentals, it's no wonder there is a mulititude of problems, from lousy golf to long, long round times. Good grief, all I've been saying is there needs to be a program where all the pros agree on the fundamentals, and when someone goes from one pro to another they aren't having to reinvent their swing. When one pro says to chip with a flexible wrist, and another says keep the wrist straight, someone has to be wrong. If not, then it's no wonder golf is harder than everything else. There's no path.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Yes! This is what I was asking Erik about when I asked if there is a fundamental difference between a putt and a five iron. At the moment of impact, are they not the same?

They are not. I answered you before.

12 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Since nobody agrees on the fundamentals, it's no wonder there is a mulititude of problems, from lousy golf to long, long round times. Good grief, all I've been saying is there needs to be a program where all the pros agree on the fundamentals, and when someone goes from one pro to another they aren't having to reinvent their swing.

Your problem is twofold. One, skiing has a certain way to teach, and enforces it, and can because skiing is pretty darn simple. Two, golf has a lot of bad instructors, so even if we could agree on the "fundamentals," you'd get a lot of people who just don't care enough to do it. And, right or wrong, even the good instructors would suffer from NIHS - Not Invented Here Syndrome.

10 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

When one pro says to chip with a flexible wrist, and another says keep the wrist straight, someone has to be wrong. If not, then it's no wonder golf is harder than everything else. There's no path.

They could both be right. Depends on what you call a "chip" and how you're trying to play it. I teach pitching with very soft wrists, and allowing gravity to throw the clubhead past your hands.

FWIW, I don't hit putts with a firm or flat left wrist, and don't teach that either. It's not the best way to hit putts, IMO.

[nevets88]

Imho, going back to an older point in this thread, with skiing, there is this fear instinct, but after a couple of trips or maybe a couple of hours for others, most people conquer the fear - falling down, the steepness, the ice, the trees. Once that fear is conquered, it's a lot easier to learn.

With golf, there is the hit instinct. Imho, that hit instinct is way harder to remove than the fear instinct.

Skiing imho is easier than golf. I bet if you follow a thousand beginning skiers and golfers, people become competent skiers much faster than golf. They'll get down a blue (not barreling down and crashing, but turning and a proper stop) much faster than breaking 100.

[Blackjack Don]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

A week for a grip change - a grip change - to feel comfortable, but you think a golfer should become competent in golf about as quickly or easily as they do in skiing?

Somehow two things got conflated, one of which I never said. I never said golf was easier than skiing or skiing is easier than golf. I said the PSIA has a program of how they teach skiing. The PGA doesn't. It should. I believe this is a cause of much of the frustration, anger, and misery in golf. Most people who are trying to improve get a hundred different opinions, many of them totally contradictory. They try one thing and then another. And then another. They never get it.

If changing a grip is hard--and it is!--try getting someone who put their weight on the tails of their skis to get out over the front. Hell, a grip change isn't as scary as going downhill leading with your face.  I never blamed a student who didn't want to do it.

Forget about how hard one is over another. Is that getting us anywhere?

And now you tell me this?

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

FWIW we renamed that about four years ago to "Inline Impact." Not every player has a flat left wrist. Like Fred Couples. Or Phil Mickelson.

What the f**k does that mean? Yeah, like I'm ever going to be Freddie or Phil. In fact, it's not only a ridiculous comparison, but counter-productive. If I were your student and you told me to do something and I kept saying "that's not how Tiger did it," how long before you give up on me? How long would you stay with a teacher who kept doing this? (No disrespect, and I mean that.) I'll stick with this conversation as long as you can stand it.

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

You said before you were an awesome, incredible student (I'm paraphrasing).

Which do you want? Someone who forces you to examine your profession or someone who blindly accepts whatever you or anyone else suggests? Would you not like to have a student who takes what you're teaching and spends hour after hour working on it? I absorb quickly, and make changes. However, if someone is telling me something...

 

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Substantially so.

without any elaboration, then I am assuming they are saying "because I said so." For me, this is where I smile and leave the car.

I am sorry that the Golfing Machine is outdated--another time you made a statement without further explanation--and I hate to keep quoting one source, it just so happens to be one I agree with: Bobby Clampett teaches from putting backwards and I think this is how teaching golf can be standardized. He says a drive is a long putt. I understand what he means. Everybody else disagrees because that's what they do.

I am enjoying this conversation. It's very enlightening.

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Then why are you a 20+?

I don't mean that rudely.

I know you don't, and know that others didn't when they saw my original 30+. Why am I a 20? Because I've been doing this in the right way for six months. How long for you?

I know you didn't mean it rudely, and I didn't take it that way. Because I've trained my mind to not be defensive. I know you are trying to help me, but resist that I'm trying to help you (and others). Ha, easy now to say I've only been at this for six months, but have you ever heard of "fresh eyes"? You guys have been doing this the same way since Hogan. The technology has improved, but not the results. I'm not saying standardized teaching is the cure, but doing the same thing over and over isn't working. Show me, if I'm wrong.

The club has to come through the ball consistently, over and over, to have good results. But we know from launcher stats that even the tiniest difference sends the ball over the fence. That's why golf is so hard. Minute differences mean a putt that misses by a half-inch, and the same difference knocks a drive into the woods. It's simply a matter of physics.

 

[Blackjack Don]

22 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

But is that the ONLY way to hit a golf ball that could be considered correct?  I'm a few decades older than Rory, and my body may be physically unable to do everything his does.  While I might be able to learn from his swing and get closer to his (as my instructors guide me on what part of my swing to fix next), I do not expect my swing to ultimately be exactly like his.

Minor point, but my swing is very repeatable. But it's not as good as it should be. 

I've enjoyed this thread, and I think I can understand a desire to have instruction more standardized. 

But I've also learned a lot from this forum, and I've seen that much of what is given out as analysis and instruction on the Golf Channel, golf magazines, YouTube, etc., is either wrong or could be misapplied.

My concern is that even if it were possible to have a "standard" instruction format, it might be put together by the same instructors putting out suboptimal/incorrect info through these other venues.  Except now it would have the imprimatur of the PGA.

Pretty much, yeah. I can't get around the same either. But the driver from  back to parallell and forward to parallel, sure, you and I can do that. I'm older and not nearly as flexible, but who is to begin with. There is a way to hit a golf ball that is the same no matter who hits it: It's a matter of physics. The problem is everyone in golf thinks it is an art, but it's simply science. 

I've seen people who contort themselves into knots and still hit the ball straight. There is nothing about their swing that a pro would say is right, yet, they get results. So there is NO reason to ever get a lesson, because if you try, you can hit a golf ball with the club wrapping around your neck.

If you, Swede, go to four pros to make your swing better, I'll bet you a cheeseburger it's not going to get better. In fact, it may be as good as you can get it. That old saying about it getting worse before it gets better may be wrong. It might get worse. Who knows?

I have no confidence in any pro, because there is so much different opinion among them. I guess we gotta stick with one and hope for the best. 

Thanks for your support. I appreciate that I'm not all alone in some of my opinions.

Lastly, I agree with you about the blessing of the PGA with one exception. I would expect if the group could get to this point where there is a standardized program, they would be able to change when new data comes in. It's all about the data. If one is open to new data, then change is not only appropriate, but the only option. I would hope it would evolve over time. Not the way it hasn't evolved or even gotten a helluva lot better than when Hogan used persimmon woods and hickory shafts.

Guys, if I'm wrong about that last line, show me. Your opinion is valuable, but evidence is more so.

 

[RussUK]

25 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

What the f**k does that mean? Yeah, like I'm ever going to be Freddie or Phil. In fact, it's not only a ridiculous comparison, but counter-productive. If I were your student and you told me to do something and I kept saying "that's not how Tiger did it," how long before you give up on me? How long would you stay with a teacher who kept doing this? (No disrespect, and I mean that.) I'll stick with this conversation as long as you can stand it.

 

 

I dont think @iacas was using Fred or Phil as comparisons, more an example that  players dont always swing the same way but that doesnt mean they dont get great results. Also i think its far from counter productive. Showing that there are many ways to hit the ball well can help players understand that the swing doesnt have to be "tour perfect" to work.