Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[Meltdwhiskey]

Done. Waiting for the book...

Me too.

[billchao]

Nice post.  I don't know if I'd agree, but it is a great answer and it is definitely something to think about.  Is playing the whites hindering our development?  It definitely puts you in different positions.  If you were going to play in a tournament soon and you knew it was from the blues, you would want to practice from there I'd think.  It still feels a little "walk before you crawl" to me though.

We're bogey golfers. I'd say we're already walking. I want to run.

In the 380 yard example above, why not go ahead and hit driver or 3 wood and get as close as you can?  You would leave yourself with a great look at a GIR and you still got to practice driver - which doesn't hinder your development.  You say you would literally never hit driver from shorter tees.  Why not?  Making the course shorter doesn't make it thinner.  Wouldn't that give you a chance to get more GIR's?

Yes, it does. Shorter clubs are easier to control and higher lofted, which are generally easier to keep on target. It's also mathematically true: A 1% error on a drive 250 yards = 2.5 yards offline. The same 1% error on a short iron 125 yards = 1.25 yards offline. Shorter yardage causes you to use shorter clubs which allow you to make more playable misses (this is a simplified explanation, there are A LOT more complicated factors involved).

My swing is in transition right now and my miss is a big push fade. With the driver, it can be unplayable. Teeing off at 400 yards or 360 yards doesn't change the percentage occurrence of that miss. It would be pointless to move up a tee so that I can score better, yet still put myself in a position to post high scores. I think this is where a lot of us go wrong in course management. IMO, the point of moving up a tee is to make setting up a decent approach shot easier. At 400 yards, if I tee off a 200 yard iron shot, I'd have to hit the same exact iron to the green. If I move up to the 360 tee, that same 200 yard tee shot sets me up for a much shorter approach. The way I approach the game, if I moved up a set of tees, I could probably take out half my clubs and I wouldn't miss them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I know people that play with only a handful of clubs in their bag, but it's not for me. But, to answer your question, yes, shorter tees would give you a better chance at GIR, but only if you do it right.

Also, teeing it forward and still playing aggressively is not sound strategy because it doesn't necessarily lead to lower scores. Please see here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/61875/tst-2012-forward-tees-experiment-results-thread . I didn't participate in the experiment, but I did find it very interesting all the same.

In number 3, I'd argue that you can play the whites and improve at them.  As previously stated, we kinda suck even from the whites.

I kind of answered this above. My misses are off line, so I adopted better course management strategies. Yes, I would suck slightly less from the whites, but it would only be because it would shorten my bag, and I want to learn the whole bag. Improvement is improvement, I absolutely agree, but for me, I wouldn't be improving in all the areas that I need to and could, and that's why I said it would be a hindrance. There is value to learning how to hit a long iron on the green, even if we may never actually do it very often.

Plenty of room for improvement without seeking more dificulty.

Golf is difficult, but that's part of it's appeal for me. I like the challenge because of it's difficulty. If it was easy, I'd play something else. The important thing is, it may be difficult, but golf is rarely frustrating to me anymore. I don't get very upset at a bad shot and I don't get upset at a bad bounce. It's like life, really, you can dwell on bad break and let it affect you, but ultimately, the only thing you can do is move forward from whatever position you're in. So why bother getting upset about something you can't control?

Anyway, just playing devil's advocate.  Your post is the kind of answer I was looking for.  It's a good thought.

No problem, it's been a pleasure to go through this thread and share some of my thought processes. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of my capabilities and limitations. It's that knowledge that allows me to make educated decisions about my game. Like I said before, they may be flawed, but they're my reasons. I didn't just make them up off the top of my head.

[billchao]

I just wanted to add something to demonstrate my course strategy:

A few months ago, I was playing a friendly match with a buddy of mine at one of my regular courses. I was two down with two to play and I managed to win the 17th with a long par putt. The 18th hole is a roughly 500 yard par 5 with a lake in front of the tee box. The landing area is pretty open, so I always hit driver on this hole. That day, I hit a great drive down the left side of the fairway. Being down by one, I went for it and put my 3w on the green. I missed the 12' putt for eagle, but I halved the match with the tap in birdie.

Last week, I played the same course and hit a good drive on 18. When I got to my ball, I saw that I was 15 yards shorter than that previous time, so I laid up, missed my approach, chipped up, and two putt for bogey. I didn't hit my 3w because the risk wasn't worth the reward. I wasn't going to hit the green, but there was still a chance that I could hit the ball into the trees. Instead, I hit an iron, effectively taking the trees out of play (yes, trees are a hazard I have to consider).

There was a chance that I could have hit that 3w and put myself in a great position to get up and down for birdie, but there was also a chance that I would hit the 3w into the trees and have to make a recovery shot. From there, it's not a stretch to say that I'd probably miss the approach, chip up, and two putt for double bogey.

So basically, my strategy was to shoot for par and make bogey, rather than to shoot for birdie and make double bogey. It's not about how many pars and birdies I put on the card, but how many doubles and triples I keep off it.

[MissouriHack]

my course strategy: use the longest club that I can and still put it in the fairway. Lots of 3 woods and hybrids off the tee. For the love of good aim at the center of the green not the pin. ( unless I have a wedge in then and only then will I go for it ) Give the birdie putt a chance. Hit the ball sissy. very basic but its helped me and there are as with everything exceptions.

[uno6518]

Shot even 100 yesterday at my home course, but that included a 45 back nine of probably the best golf I've played all year. I was thinking about the strategy discussions from this thread and why I was doing what I was doing.

1)    I have no good reason why I play the tees that I do. There are three sets of tees, and I always play the middle at 5800yds/128 vs 5500yds/125 at the forward tees. I don't play the tips because I know I have no business doing so, especially on a crowded course.

I don't play the most forward tees because I guess I always figured the distance wasn't a problem for me. I drive the ball well, stay in the course, and usually hit my driver as often as I can. I struggle with my swing low point consistency whether I'm hitting wedge or 5 iron. As stated in this thread by several people, I'm sure, despite that, I would still absolutely score better from the forward tees, but I guess whether I shoot 100 or 94 isn't that big of a deal to me. I don't think playing the forward tees would put me shooting low 90's/high 80's consistently. All of this to say I don't have a great reason to not play the most forward, but I also don't feel like I have a great reason to play them either.

2)   I also had a chance to think about how to handle trying to make up for a bad tee shot. I had a total mishit on a par 5 off the tee, and was faced with the options discussed in this thread--hit something like a hybrid/long iron to make up the distance, or hit a more comfortable club (7 iron for me), take my medicine, and not try to do too much.

For me, it was easy to choose my 3-hybrid. My big misses with this club are low screamers that skip down the course, and my best shot with this club will go 200 yards, and leave me with an easier approach on this particular hole. In these situations, I just ask myself if I could live with the mishit. If anything, I'd be more likely to hit 7-iron over 5-iron, as my big misses there are nasty chunks.

So I guess with these types of decisions, unless there is a reason to be competitive with my partner, I don't worry about how tees or make-up shots will affect my score. Every shot I take, no matter where from, is an opportunity to work on ball striking, and that's my priority. I never really thought about these things, so it's been a great mental exercise reading this thread and thinking about it on the course.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

In the 380 yard example above, why not go ahead and hit driver or 3 wood and get as close as you can?  You would leave yourself with a great look at a GIR and you still got to practice driver - which doesn't hinder your development.  You say you would literally never hit driver from shorter tees.  Why not?  Making the course shorter doesn't make it thinner.  Wouldn't that give you a chance to get more GIR's?

Yes, it does. Shorter clubs are easier to control and higher lofted, which are generally easier to keep on target. It's also mathematically true: A 1% error on a drive 250 yards = 2.5 yards offline. The same 1% error on a short iron 125 yards = 1.25 yards offline. Shorter yardage causes you to use shorter clubs which allow you to make more playable misses (this is a simplified explanation, there are A LOT more complicated factors involved).

No it doesn't.  I can't really respond to the whole post, and I agree that everything you say in italics is true.  Also, I wholeheartedly agree with a strategy of staying away from clubs you can't control well.  I don't even carry a driver! We are very much on the same page there.  Your math explains how a longer shot is more likely to go further off line.  And that is true.  I don't think anyone anywhere is disputing that.

But it does not explain how playing the whole from 370 makes the fairway any thinner than if you'd played it from 390.  You even wrote yourself, " Teeing off at 400 yards or 360 yards doesn't change the percentage occurrence of that miss."

The fairway is the exact same width.  If you can keep it in play from 400, then you can keep it in play from 370 - unless that hole specifically tapers down at that exact spot.  Your shot is going to travel the same distance and land the same amount off line (or on line) regardless of which tee you hit from.  The only difference is you get to hit a shorter approach shot and (to borrow your math) use a shorter club that is easier to control and higher lofted, which is generally easier to keep on target .

If you can not keep driver in play from 400, then it still is not a good idea to use it.  Not if you want to score well anyway.  It almost sounds like you are saying that driver isn't a good idea to use from 370 because you feel that distance allows you to get away with using a more controllable club.  And the longer hole in essence 'forces' you to use driver - and apparently hit "big push fade" that goes in the woods more often. But if you want to score well, and you can't keep it in play, it isn't a good idea from either distance.  And the converse is still true as well.  If you are able to keep in in play from 400, then you can from 370 as well.  You'll just be 2-3 clubs closer to the green.

Just my take.  I'll let you have it from here.

[JonMA1]

Also, I wholeheartedly agree with a strategy of staying away from clubs you can't control well.  I don't even carry a driver! We are very much on the same page there.  Your math explains how a longer shot is more likely to go further off line.  And that is true.  I don't think anyone anywhere is disputing that.

While you folks are working at getting into single digits, I'm trying to get where you are presently. The strategy discussions on this thread are far more beneficial to me than watching pros play and listening to GC announcers as your comments are much more relevant.

Concerning the bold statement, at this stage of my game, I'm of the opinion that learning to hit all my clubs is more important than scoring. Perhaps an obvious reason for my high handicap (I'm always looking for an excuse).

But learning also includes course strategy. Later this year I started to use my fairway woods on certain par 4's even if I couldn't reach the green or hazard with the driver. Some holes are just too narrow or they might open up at 200 yds (5 wood) and then become narrow at 220 (driver). The difference of 20 yds leaves me with an 8 iron shot instead of a pitching wedge. While I understand the logic of getting your approach shot as short as possible, I suppose you have to pick your poison. In this case, I'd choose an 8 iron over the PW versus the driver over the 5 wood.

On other holes, like a wider fairway of a par 5 and/or because of the distances left for a second shot, it's more logical to use a driver where that extra 20 yards is worth the risk of a possible hook or slice.

While I think it's important to use all the clubs in the bag, I agree that if there's a club that never gets used, leave it at home. I found it's easier for me to get out of sand with my lob wedge than my sand wedge so I no longer bring the SW.

[rkim291968]

I found it's easier for me to get out of sand with my lob wedge than my sand wedge so I no longer bring the SW.

Eventually as you get better, you may have to put SW back in your bag for more distance control options with your short game.   That's a big gap between LW and your next club (GW or  PW?).

[JonMA1]

Eventually as you get better, you may have to put SW back in your bag for more distance control options with your short game.   That's a big gap between LW and your next club (GW or  PW?).

Most of the opinions I read or hear supports what you say. It's better to have versatility or options in regards to distance control and shot type in the short game. Hopefully, I'll get to the point where that's the part of my game that needs the most attention. Thanks.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by JonMA1

While you folks are working at getting into single digits, I'm trying to get where you are presently. The strategy discussions on this thread are far more beneficial to me than watching pros play and listening to GC announcers as your comments are much more relevant.

Concerning the bold statement, at this stage of my game, I'm of the opinion that learning to hit all my clubs is more important than scoring. Perhaps an obvious reason for my high handicap (I'm always looking for an excuse).

But learning also includes course strategy. Later this year I started to use my fairway woods on certain par 4's even if I couldn't reach the green or hazard with the driver. Some holes are just too narrow or they might open up at 200 yds (5 wood) and then become narrow at 220 (driver). The difference of 20 yds leaves me with an 8 iron shot instead of a pitching wedge. While I understand the logic of getting your approach shot as short as possible, I suppose you have to pick your poison. In this case, I'd choose an 8 iron over the PW versus the driver over the 5 wood.

On other holes, like a wider fairway of a par 5 and/or because of the distances left for a second shot, it's more logical to use a driver where that extra 20 yards is worth the risk of a possible hook or slice.

While I think it's important to use all the clubs in the bag, I agree that if there's a club that never gets used, leave it at home. I found it's easier for me to get out of sand with my lob wedge than my sand wedge so I no longer bring the SW.

I'm of the opinion that learning to hit all my clubs is more important than scoring - I guess for full disclosure I should note that everything I've written in this thread is relevant to scoring.

...because of the distances left for a second shot, it's more logical to use a driver where that extra 20 yards is worth the risk of a possible hook or slice. - I'd argue that this is only true if the 20 extra yards saves you a stroke more often than the slice costs you a stroke.  The extra 20 yards is going to save you between 0 and 1 stroke - and probably closer to 0.  A slice into the rough, woods, pond, OB, lost ball, etc can easily cost you 2 or more strokes.  If you are higher than a bogey golfer, then you aren't getting many GIR's anyway.  So why risk a blow up hole to get 20 more yards.  You'll probably miss the green, chip on and two put from either approach.

While I think it's important to use all the clubs in the bag - I don't know how important that is ultimately.  You can always practice clubs at on the range and then use them on the course once they are more reliable.  And in the meantime, enjoy better scores.  For me, hitting driver into the woods, searching for and losing balls, running up my score, etc are not worth using a club I'm not likely to hit into the fairway. I'm not sure how much a person's game benefits from hitting bad shots on the course just to make sure the club got some use. That would be a question for the coaches here.  I feel like getting better and better at 3-wood is helping me work toward driver. And hybrid before I incorporated 3-wood.  And 4i before I incorporated hybrid.

Once again - all of this just relevant to scoring.  I'm not sure it would be relevant to philosophize about strategy without the goal being to score lower. I really enjoy the aspect of golf of dissecting the hole and figuring out the best way to get down in the least strokes - even if that means bogey.

[rkim291968]

Sob story ... on a par 3 hole yesterday:

Hole - 154 yards, huge elevation drop, surrounded by large/deep bunkers on the left, and OB area on back & right.

Shot 1 - went straight to the middle of the green initially (yeah!) but ball is drawing (not intended), wind adds it to the draw, ....

Landing - ball lands just off of green, bounces 2 yards into the dreaded big bunker.

Trouble - I have not mastered getting out of 4 yard deep bunker.   So, my confidence is shot before I even go into the bunker.

Shot 2 - my 1st bunker shot can't clear the lip by 1 yard, rolls down to the same spot

Shot 3 - I overcompensate and hit it clearly out of bunker to near the OB area on the opposite side

Shot 4 - ball ends up behind a tree below a small hill.  Not OB but just as bad.

Shot 5 - I make a lateral but the ball rolls down back into near OB area.

Shot 6 - None.  I gave up for the obligatory ESC hole score of 8.  The group behind me is witnessing my walk back and forth and waiting impatiently (probably laughing, too).

I was doing well up until this hole (#13) and my game was never the same afterward.   A yard or two, no sudden wind pick up and I would have gotten away from this hole with par or bogey.   Instead it's an 8 which I never recover from.

[JonMA1]

I'm of the opinion that learning to hit all my clubs is more important than scoring - I guess for full disclosure I should note that everything I've written in this thread is relevant to scoring.

...because of the distances left for a second shot, it's more logical to use a driver where that extra 20 yards is worth the risk of a possible hook or slice. - I'd argue that this is only true if the 20 extra yards saves you a stroke more often than the slice costs you a stroke.  The extra 20 yards is going to save you between 0 and 1 stroke - and probably closer to 0.  A slice into the rough, woods, pond, OB, lost ball, etc can easily cost you 2 or more strokes.  If you are higher than a bogey golfer, then you aren't getting many GIR's anyway.  So why risk a blow up hole to get 20 more yards.  You'll probably miss the green, chip on and two put from either approach.

While I think it's important to use all the clubs in the bag - I don't know how important that is ultimately.  You can always practice clubs at on the range and then use them on the course once they are more reliable.  And in the meantime, enjoy better scores.  For me, hitting driver into the woods, searching for and losing balls, running up my score, etc are not worth using a club I'm not likely to hit into the fairway. I'm not sure how much a person's game benefits from hitting bad shots on the course just to make sure the club got some use. That would be a question for the coaches here.  I feel like getting better and better at 3-wood is helping me work toward driver. And hybrid before I incorporated 3-wood.  And 4i before I incorporated hybrid.

Once again - all of this just relevant to scoring.  I'm not sure it would be relevant to philosophize about strategy without the goal being to score lower. I really enjoy the aspect of golf of dissecting the hole and figuring out the best way to get down in the least strokes - even if that means bogey.

I know better than to disagree too much with one who has a lower handicap. Melt, I will concede you have way more knowledge than I do so take my opinion for what it's worth.

I think your first point describes where each of us are coming from. I don't go to the range often so my weekly round of golf (usually by myself) is more than shooting my lowest score ever. Don't get me wrong, it sucks when I don't score well, but for the last 3 months, it's been almost 100% about improving.

But let's say I'm in a tournament or I really don't want to lose to my playing partner - so scoring is everything. If it's a wide fairway as I stated, I have a pretty good chance of keeping it on the short grass. While I don't hit ANY of my clubs with as much confidence as I do my 5w, I know my game enough to feel pretty good about using my driver in this situation. Now, if I've been struggling with the driver or if the fairway feels too narrow, than you're right, go with the safe bet. But every shot has an element of chance to it.

If I'm on a 450 yd par 5, my first shot can go 220 (driver) or it can 200 (5w off the tee). I'm probably going to get 190 yds with my second shot (5w off the deck). So if I use the driver off the tee, my third shot is 40 yards from the hole. If the 5w is used for my tee shot, I'll have 60. (I hope I didn't make a stupid math mistake, I did this in a hurry)

It all comes down to risk vs reward. You feel as though that 60 yard shot vs 40 yards doesn't warrant the risk. I feel like my chances are good enough to keep it on the fairway with the driver and therefor worth the risk of an easier approach shot. Maybe it depends on the score, if I'm way ahead or have to come from behind.

Would you agree that it's not black and white or would you always take the safe strategy?

After thinking this over, I don't have a real strong argument. Lol. And you're exactly right about my inability to hit GIR.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I think your first point describes where each of us are coming from. I don't go to the range often so my weekly round of golf (usually by myself) is more than shooting my lowest score ever. Don't get me wrong, it sucks when I don't score well, but for the last 3 months, it's been almost 100% about improving.

I see what you are saying.  I just wanted to make it clear that my thoughts are coming from a place of how to score better and nothing else like practicing certain shots or having more fun or trying out a new club or seeing if I can carry the creek.  I know those can be fun parts of the game, they just haven't factored into my 'scoring' thoughts here.  Also, my game is obviously not very good and I only strike the ball so well.  That will come around, but for now I have invested some thought into course management to keep the scores down.

But let's say I'm in a tournament or I really don't want to lose to my playing partner - so scoring is everything. If it's a wide fairway as I stated, I have a pretty good chance of keeping it on the short grass. While I don't hit ANY of my clubs with as much confidence as I do my 5w, I know my game enough to feel pretty good about using my driver in this situation. Now, if I've been struggling with the driver or if the fairway feels too narrow, than you're right, go with the safe bet. But every shot has an element of chance to it.

If you are likely to keep it in play - I'm with you.  It is the right play.  I also tend to judge what I'll use based on the width of the fairway. The question is what are you going to get out of it compared to what you might lose because of it.

If I'm on a 450 yd par 5, my first shot can go 220 (driver) or it can 200 (5w off the tee). I'm probably going to get 190 yds with my second shot (5w off the deck). So if I use the driver off the tee, my third shot is 40 yards from the hole. If the 5w is used for my tee shot, I'll have 60. (I hope I didn't make a stupid math mistake, I did this in a hurry)

It all comes down to risk vs reward. You feel as though that 60 yard shot vs 40 yards doesn't warrant the risk. I feel like my chances are good enough to keep it on the fairway with the driver and therefor worth the risk of an easier approach shot. Maybe it depends on the score, if I'm way ahead or have to come from behind.

Is your approach from 60 deplorable but your approach from 40 awesome?  I'd bet if you played it out from both distances 20 times, you  would get down in the same amount of strokes most of the time - with the 40 yard shot having a slight edge.  Let's say for argument you get down in 3.3 strokes from 40 and 3.5 strokes from 60.

But to get this slight edge, you had to replace the club you are most confident in (5w) with the riskiest club in the bag for your tee shot.  So if you go OB or lost ball or just a bad place in the woods, add 2 strokes or heaven forbid more.  You are taking a 2 stroke risk to get a 0.2 stroke advantage.  The odds are in the house's favor.  If you make one mistake with the driver - you have to go 10 tee shots without error to get back to even.  Of course we don't know the exact math, but I think you see where I'm going.

But you say you feel pretty good about getting it in the fairway.  If that is the case, then it is the play.  A lot of bogey golfers have trouble keeping that driver in play though.  And the penalty can be pretty harmful for using it.  Where the benefit of using it isn't always all it's cracked up to be.

Would you agree that it's not black and white or would you always take the safe strategy?

After thinking this over, I don't have a real strong argument. Lol. And you're exactly right about my inability to hit GIR.

It isn't just about playing safe or conservative. It's about playing the odds for the best score.  But since we kinda stink, safe turns out for the best more often than not.  Phil an Tiger might gain something with go-for-it attitudes because they can pull off really skillful shots.  But we are less likely to do so. We stand on that first tee box at even par and move progressively away from it on basically every hole.  We damage the score card all the way to the end. He who does the least damage - wins.  IMO, a bogey golfer scoring well is less about taking chances to get more pars than it is about staying out of the woods and writing less 8's on the card.  Gotta get those 8's off the card if you want to break 90.

Regarding the GIR's - I think that is where we get into trouble.  I've given an enormous amount of thought to this from a bogey perspective.  Golf is set up to get there in 2 shots (par 4) and we tend to treat every tee shot as if that is what we need to do. But if you aren't shooting 90, you probably aren't getting there in 2 anyway and maybe not in 3.  So I don't think there is anything wrong with playing a strategy that ensures you get there in 3 while hoping to get there in 2.  Get there in 3 and 2 putt and you shoot 90.  And since you don't get many GIR's anyway, you haven't sacrificed anything.  But we tend to play the tee shot as if we HAVE to get there in 2.  Playing it from that perspective could put you at risk of hitting it into trouble - which means getting there in 4 or worse and shooting 97 again.  Once we can get there in 3 every time, then obviously it is time to start thinking about getting there in 2 more often.  FWIW - Rory only gets about 13 GIR's in a round.

These are just my musings.  I try to observe others play and of course I analyze the crap out of my game.  There is no substitute for hitting the ball well of course.  But in the absence of that, we have course management to help shoot the best score.  I find it fascinating and it is one of the more fun parts of the game for me to think about.

[JonMA1]

I find it fascinating and it is one of the more fun parts of the game for me to think about.

Agreed. As I stated in an earlier post, I can learn a great deal from reading some of the posts in this thread about course management. Having your strategy turn out to be right is sometimes as rewarding as making a nice shot - even if it's laying up after a crappy shot and saving bogie.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by JonMA1

Agreed. As I stated in an earlier post, I can learn a great deal from reading some of the posts in this thread about course management. Having your strategy turn out to be right is sometimes as rewarding as making a nice shot - even if it's laying up after a crappy shot and saving bogie.

I totally agree.  It isn't always easy to see like pulling off a miracle shot, but your scorecard will thank you at the end of the round.

[billchao]

But it does not explain how playing the whole from 370 makes the fairway any thinner than if you'd played it from 390.  You even wrote yourself, "Teeing off at 400 yards or 360 yards doesn't change the percentage occurrence of that miss."

The fairway is the exact same width.  If you can keep it in play from 400, then you can keep it in play from 370 - unless that hole specifically tapers down at that exact spot.  Your shot is going to travel the same distance and land the same amount off line (or on line) regardless of which tee you hit from.  The only difference is you get to hit a shorter approach shot and (to borrow your math) use a shorter club that is easier to control and higher lofted, which is generally easier to keep on target.

I guess I didn't articulate well enough. Everyone's shot is going to deviate from the target line in one direction or the other. All I'm saying is that you are going to be closer to your target line with your 9i than your driver. The % chance to miss is less relevant; I can hit that push fade with all my clubs, it's a swing fault.

I'll give you that the fairway doesn't actually become thinner. It plays thinner. Why? Because I'm using a shorter club. A lot of holes do have different landing areas based on distance, but I don't really think that is relevant to this discussion.

Setting up the approach is exactly the reason why I wouldn't hit the driver from the shorter distance. If I'm looking to hit 9i into the green from 400, why wouldn't I be from 360? What would I gain from the extra 40 yards? I'm not that much more accurate with my wedges than my 9i, but I'm a lot more accurate with my 5i than my driver. That 's what I mean when I say my approach would change if the course got shorter; I'd simply tee off a shorter club to set up the approach that I'm looking for.

If you can not keep driver in play from 400, then it still is not a good idea to use it.  Not if you want to score well anyway.  It almost sounds like you are saying that driver isn't a good idea to use from 370 because you feel that distance allows you to get away with using a more controllable club.  And the longer hole in essence 'forces' you to use driver - and apparently hit "big push fade" that goes in the woods more often.  But if you want to score well, and you can't keep it in play, it isn't a good idea from either distance.  And the converse is still true as well.  If you are able to keep in in play from 400, then you can from 370 as well.  You'll just be 2-3 clubs closer to the green.

I highlighted the bold part because that's exactly what I'm saying.

A longer hole never "forces" me to do anything. It's a golf course, not my wife . The longer hole makes the driver a more attractive option, but never do I feel like it's my only option.

I never said I can't keep it in play, either. This is what I mean by % chance to miss: Say I hit the big push fade 10% of the time. Like I said before, it can happen with ALL clubs - it's a swing fault. If my driver is off line by, say, 40 yards, my 6i with the same miss will be off line by maybe 25 yards. The 15 yards make a big difference, or it might not, it depends on the hole and my target line.

There's a chance I can put any long iron or wood into the trees, but I'm certainly not going to tee off 9i on every hole because of it. I'm still shooting to make GIR, not concede it because I'm worried I'll hit an errant shot.

While I think it's important to use all the clubs in the bag - I don't know how important that is ultimately.  You can always practice clubs at on the range and then use them on the course once they are more reliable.  And in the meantime, enjoy better scores.

I know this was directed at someone else, but you are interested in other people's thought processes, so I'll comment on it, too.

I disagree with you, here. The range is not the course - results may not directly translate. I agree that you should use the range to work on your game. However, you still need that real course experience, under pressure, from various lies. I don't know how your range is set up, but I can't replicate that on mine.

I rarely make big misses from 8i and up. However, I'm not going to play golf with only my 8i through putter in the interest of scoring better. My handicap may go down, but I think it would be a poor representation of my overall game.

It isn't just about playing safe or conservative. It's about playing the odds for the best score.  But since we kinda stink, safe turns out for the best more often than not.

Regarding the GIR's - I think that is where we get into trouble.  I've given an enormous amount of thought to this from a bogey perspective.  Golf is set up to get there in 2 shots (par 4) and we tend to treat every tee shot as if that is what we need to do. But if you aren't shooting 90, you probably aren't getting there in 2 anyway and maybe not in 3.  So I don't think there is anything wrong with playing a strategy that ensures you get there in 3 while hoping to get there in 2.

Your strategy feels a little too safe, IMO. You're right, we're not getting there in two and probably not three, either.

I just don't see how you can "ensure" that we get there in three. I'm not that good. I can hit a perfect drive right down the middle of the fairway and top the approach. And chunk the pitch. And three putt after I get on the green. I don't think you can make the assumption that better strategy is the only reason we're not better. Will it help? Absolutely, but at the end of the day, we have to make those shots. I don't think you can make up for mishits simply with better course management and therein lies the danger of playing too conservatively.

Anyway, good discussion, I am enjoying this a lot.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I guess I didn't articulate well enough. Everyone's shot is going to deviate from the target line in one direction or the other. All I'm saying is that you are going to be closer to your target line with your 9i than your driver. The % chance to miss is less relevant; I can hit that push fade with all my clubs, it's a swing fault.

I'll give you that the fairway doesn't actually become thinner. It plays thinner. Why? Because I'm using a shorter club. A lot of holes do have different landing areas based on distance, but I don't really think that is relevant to this discussion.

Setting up the approach is exactly the reason why I wouldn't hit the driver from the shorter distance. If I'm looking to hit 9i into the green from 400, why wouldn't I be from 360? What would I gain from the extra 40 yards? I'm not that much more accurate with my wedges than my 9i, but I'm a lot more accurate with my 5i than my driver. That 's what I mean when I say my approach would change if the course got shorter; I'd simply tee off a shorter club to set up the approach that I'm looking for.

highlighted the bold part because that's exactly what I'm saying.

A longer hole never "forces" me to do anything. It's a golf course, not my wife . The longer hole makes the driver a more attractive option, but never do I feel like it's my only option.

I never said I can't keep it in play, either. This is what I mean by % chance to miss: Say I hit the big push fade 10% of the time. Like I said before, it can happen with ALL clubs - it's a swing fault. If my driver is off line by, say, 40 yards, my 6i with the same miss will be off line by maybe 25 yards. The 15 yards make a big difference, or it might not, it depends on the hole and my target line.

There's a chance I can put any long iron or wood into the trees, but I'm certainly not going to tee off 9i on every hole because of it. I'm still shooting to make GIR, not concede it because I'm worried I'll hit an errant shot.

I know this was directed at someone else, but you are interested in other people's thought processes, so I'll comment on it, too.

I disagree with you, here. The range is not the course - results may not directly translate. I agree that you should use the range to work on your game. However, you still need that real course experience, under pressure, from various lies. I don't know how your range is set up, but I can't replicate that on mine.

I rarely make big misses from 8i and up. However, I'm not going to play golf with only my 8i through putter in the interest of scoring better. My handicap may go down, but I think it would be a poor representation of my overall game.

Your strategy feels a little too safe, IMO. You're right, we're not getting there in two and probably not three, either.

I just don't see how you can "ensure" that we get there in three. I'm not that good. I can hit a perfect drive right down the middle of the fairway and top the approach. And chunk the pitch. And three putt after I get on the green. I don't think you can make the assumption that better strategy is the only reason we're not better. Will it help? Absolutely, but at the end of the day, we have to make those shots. I don't think you can make up for mishits simply with better course management and therein lies the danger of playing too conservatively.

Anyway, good discussion, I am enjoying this a lot.

I never meant to imply that a golf hole could force you to do anything.  Was just kind of a figure of speech.

If I follow your comments: you don't break 90 often, but play longer tees for more of a challenge.  You don't normally hit the green in 2 and often not in 3.  But instead of hitting a more accurate club off the tee from closer, you would rather back up and hit a less accurate club off the tee and increase the odds that you will hit offline and increase the distance offline you will hit it - by your own explanation.  And you don't want to use this club from the closer tees because it isn't going to help anything to hit a shorter approach shot.

I don't think this theory is uncommon.  I actually get it.  My original comments about it were just that it all didn't seem logical.  It seemed we would try to play the easier game (the game recommended by the course, the USGA, the tee it forward program, etc) until we were pretty good at it and then increase the difficulty.  I just find it odd.  Clearly you don't.  Good enough.

I never meant to imply anyone should go 9i off every tee.  Different skill levels will be better at keeping longer and longer clubs in play more often.  I don't hit 9i off every tee.  The point was to hit whatever will give you the best distance while minimizing trouble.  For a beginner, that could well be a mid-high iron.

I realize the range is not the course.  There would be something to be gained by practicing clubs you are not good at while playing a round.  Not scoring wise, but practice wise.  I'm not sure how much or how fast that pays off, but I concede it should offer some practice - at least one stroke's worth - for the club in question.

I want to reiterate that any strategy talk is about scoring the best.  I think of golf as a sport or a game or a competition.  Scoring is the point.  I'm guessing the new book they are talking about here is a book about strategies for scoring the best.  And this is the tree I'm barking up. I'll be interested to see what they say in it and if any of my ideas coincide with what they write.  So none of my comments will be relevant to things you want to accomplish on the course that cause you to score worse.  All of my comments are scoring centric.

I never suggested that you play only 8i - putter.  But you imply that some limited club choice might actually make your handicap go down and it would be in the interest of you scoring better.  So if it does, then I guess I do suggest that.  To me, it actually seems odd that someone would go to the course and purposely choose clubs they felt would not lower their handicap and choose clubs that are not in the interest of scoring better.  Doesn't it sound strange?  I want to shoot the best round I can.  I think the HC rules might even say that is how you are supposed to play if you carry one.

If you are not interested in scoring better - right now - today - this round - this hole - then my comments would not apply to whatever you are trying to do.  It takes time and practice to actually get better at hitting the ball.  Strategy pays off immediately and without effort - just a clever thought process.  Picture yourself in the fairway (or whatever situation) in the heat of battle in a game against a guy you want to beat.  This is where my mind is when offering ideas.

No one can actually ensure getting to the green in any number of shots.  Once again - a figure of speech about a game plan.

I never said that strategy is the only reason we aren't better.  But I think it is A reason we don't score better. You wrote, "Will it help? Absolutely".  That's all I'm saying as well.  It will help you score better. I'm not sure how you say it is "too conservative" but that it will absolutely help you score better.  If it makes you score better - then I'd say that it is exactly conservative enough.  This is blowing my mind.  You are essentially saying you adopt a strategy that you know is worse.

You say one can't make up for mishits with good course management.  What I'm saying is the mishits make us a 21 HC (for example).  But with good course management, logical choices, trouble avoidance, taking skill level into account, playing the odds, etc, you can be less than a 21 - without ever getting better at hitting the ball.  I'm not sure how lowering your HC can be considered a "danger of playing too conservatively."  It isn't detrimental.  A conservative player has just as much chance to improve at golf as an aggressive one.

I think I might have made a bad assumption early in this thread that everyone was also interested in scoring.  I should have prefaced some of my comments with the fact that scoring would be the goal.  I hope to learn to hit the ball better and I certainly practice that.  But when I go to the course I try to do my best.  It seems many folks like to play for enjoyment of the outdoors or to make certain shots or play a certain type of game that they will grow into one day.  And that is fine, I have no dog in that hunt.  It just isn't what I've been basing my comments around. In retrospect I'm not sure we've been talking about the same thing.

[billchao]

@Meltdwhiskey , either you're not reading my posts right, or I'm not as good of a writer as I think I am, so I'm going to try to break this down so it's easier to understand.

If I follow your comments: you don't break 90 often, but play longer tees for more of a challenge.

I don't break 90 often, but I'm not playing longer tees just for the sake of difficulty. I play slightly longer tees so I can play golf and experience the golf course the way it was designed. Shortening a course can have a significant impact on how it plays. Those fairway bunkers 250 yards out that make you rethink your driver? Gone. That long carry? Gone. I'm not going to play pitch and putt (exaggeration, so don't take this literally) and claim to be a good golfer.

You don't normally hit the green in 2 and often not in 3.

Because I mishit the ball, and I'm sure it's the primary reason most of us miss. The hole could be 120 yards long and I still might not get there in two. Like I said, better course management cannot fix everything.

But instead of hitting a more accurate club off the tee from closer, you would rather back up and hit a less accurate club off the tee and increase the odds that you will hit offline and increase the distance offline you will hit it - by your own explanation.  And you don't want to use this club from the closer tees because it isn't going to help anything to hit a shorter approach shot.

Because improvement comes from hitting the club, not avoiding it because I'm not very good at it at the moment. I'm not going to get any better at the driver by hitting 5i off every tee.

I don't think this theory is uncommon.  I actually get it.  My original comments about it were just that it all didn't seem logical.  It seemed we would try to play the easier game (the game recommended by the course, the USGA, the tee it forward program, etc) until we were pretty good at it and then increase the difficulty.  I just find it odd.  Clearly you don't.  Good enough.

AFAIK, the tee it forward program is about matching people's length with the proper yardage tees on course. The idea is, too many people are hitting approach shots with long irons and woods, and that is not how the game is meant to be played. I'm not hitting long irons or woods into greens, so at the risk of sounding really full of myself, I don't feel I need to tee it forward.

If you are not interested in scoring better - right now - today - this round - this hole - then my comments would not apply to whatever you are trying to do.  It takes time and practice to actually get better at hitting the ball.  Strategy pays off immediately and without effort - just a clever thought process.  Picture yourself in the fairway (or whatever situation) in the heat of battle in a game against a guy you want to beat.  This is where my mind is when offering ideas.

No. I'm interested in scoring better for the long haul. Five, ten years from now, if I adopt the strategy to score better today, everyday, I'll still struggle with the driver. I'm not going to mortgage the future for the present. If that means I shoot slightly worse scores today, so be it.

No one can actually ensure getting to the green in any number of shots.  Once again - a figure of speech about a game plan.

Good, I'm glad you agree with me. The point is, if you top the ball, hit it fat, shank it, how will setting out to hit a par 4 in three help? If I'm getting on in four already, if I plan to get on in three instead of two, what makes you think I won't end up getting on in five?

I think I might have made a bad assumption early in this thread that everyone was also interested in scoring.  I should have prefaced some of my comments with the fact that scoring would be the goal.

Yes, scoring is the goal, but I think your bad assumption is that we are all bogey golfers for the same reasons. I'm a bogey golfer, yes. I also played 12 rounds the last two years. Better strategy is the only reason I'm still a bogey golfer.

When I played three times a week a few years ago, I got down to a 12 handicap. I mishit the ball a lot less often because I was more consistent. I'm working hard now to make swing changes so that I'll be more consistent and I plan to play more next year, so I fully expect to be better than I ever was soon enough.