Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[stockwells2golf]

gee i could have written the same eighteen months ago..you won't know yourself once you start with these..get out onto the practice fairway with a heap of balls and see if you can crack that magic 200/50+yards

[Meltdwhiskey]

There's an executive course by me: 3,300 yards, par 58. Lowest I ever shot there was 79, so I'll say shorter than 3,000 yards to shoot 72, but it's not even par. I think it's a fallacy to pick one aspect of our game or another as the reason we're not better golfers. Every aspect of our games need work, that's why we're bogey golfers. I bet I'd have a hard time shooting par on a pitch and putt, and I doubt I'm the only one here that would.

That's a great point. I used to play an executive that was 3700-4000 par 61. But I guess all that matters is the length and the fact it is 18 holes. Best I shot there was a 74 if memory serves and that was one of the best rounds I've ever shot. Probably shot 80 or so most often. I think you are close to the right answer.

[Lihu]

[quote name="billchao" url="/t/70872/bogey-golfer-only-thread-handicap-index-from-16-22-what-are-you-going-through-working-on-sob-stories/390#post_926358"] There's an executive course by me: 3,300 yards, par 58. Lowest I ever shot there was 79, so I'll say shorter than 3,000 yards to shoot 72, but it's not even par. I think it's a fallacy to pick one aspect of our game or another as the reason we're not better golfers. Every aspect of our games need work, that's why we're bogey golfers. I bet I'd have a hard time shooting par on a pitch and putt, and I doubt I'm the only one here that would.

That's a great point. I used to play an executive that was 3700-4000 par 61. But I guess all that matters is the length and the fact it is 18 holes. Best I shot there was a 74 if memory serves and that was one of the best rounds I've ever shot. Probably shot 80 or so most often. I think you are close to the right answer.[/quote] This discussion seems to indicate that the long game is more critical to get you to 13 over par. On a par 71 that would mean you could score around 84, if distance is not your problem. This is in line with making your long game more solid. If length is the only factor keeping you from getting to a 13 over par score then improve your long game. To get from 13 over to scratch, you need a really solid short game. This is in line with trying to get down to 29 putts, and that's the reason why a pitch and putt is still hard before you get to the 29 putt skill level.

[stockwells2golf]

what was i thinking.. i was talked into playing right handed instead of my natural left hand ..well i must say after a year of this i was alot straighter but absouluty without any power always 50+yards behind.needless to say i'm back to lefthanded. i dont know if was my stint as a righthander but am hitting the ball straighter, and longer.and starting to enjoy the game!

has anyone else had a similar experence.or am i'm the only one stupid enough to listen?

[rkim291968]

what was i thinking.. i was talked into playing right handed instead of my natural left hand ..well i must say after a year of this i was alot straighter but absouluty without any power always 50+yards behind.needless to say i'm back to lefthanded. i dont know if was my stint as a righthander but am hitting the ball straighter, and longer.and starting to enjoy the game!

has anyone else had a similar experence.or am i'm the only one stupid enough to listen?

The closest I've seen to your cases were,

- One guy hit everything right handed but putted left.

- I've seen a women who plays left handed when she is naturally right handed.  Her husband was too cheap to buy her a set so she played with her husband's set (which is, you guessed it, left handed).

[Lihu]

what was i thinking.. i was talked into playing right handed instead of my natural left hand ..well i must say after a year of this i was alot straighter but absouluty without any power always 50+yards behind.needless to say i'm back to lefthanded. i dont know if was my stint as a righthander but am hitting the ball straighter, and longer.and starting to enjoy the game!

has anyone else had a similar experence.or am i'm the only one stupid enough to listen?

I injured by shoulder a while back and needed to hit right handed. Once I was back to left hand, it was more or less the same.

The only regret of being left handed is the lack of equipment choices, but thanks to Phil and Bubba we are getting more.

[MissouriHack]

That's a great point. I used to play an executive that was 3700-4000 par 61. But I guess all that matters is the length and the fact it is 18 holes. Best I shot there was a 74 if memory serves and that was one of the best rounds I've ever shot. Probably shot 80 or so most often. I think you are close to the right answer.

A par 3 course sounds like a lot of fun right now.

[rkim291968]

Just came back from range practice.  My bunker play is coming into shape.  But as with any typical bogey golfer, if one thing is getting better, another thing is going bad.   Now, I can't putt.  Time to roll some balls on kitchen floor.

[rkim291968]

I injured by shoulder a while back and needed to hit right handed. Once I was back to left hand, it was more or less the same.

That's amazing, although you are forced to the situation unlike stockwells.   Do you think you can play bogey golf playing off handed if you put some effort into it?

( I am right handed but boxed left handed.  It just happened that way when I started at 10.  My coach, surprisingly didn't bother to fix it.  But it gave me a huge advantage - my opponent never suspected until it was too late. )

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I injured by shoulder a while back and needed to hit right handed. Once I was back to left hand, it was more or less the same.

That's amazing, although you are forced to the situation unlike stockwells.   Do you think you can play bogey golf playing off handed if you put some effort into it?

( I am right handed but boxed left handed.  It just happened that way when I started at 10.  My coach, surprisingly didn't bother to fix it.  But it gave me a huge advantage - my opponent never suspected until it was too late. )

Honestly, I haven't tried right handed playing for about a year, my first response to that question is "I doubt it". I should pull them out of the closet, just to try them out.

[Meltdwhiskey]

what was i thinking.. i was talked into playing right handed instead of my natural left hand ..well i must say after a year of this i was alot straighter but absouluty without any power always 50+yards behind.needless to say i'm back to lefthanded. i dont know if was my stint as a righthander but am hitting the ball straighter, and longer.and starting to enjoy the game! has anyone else had a similar experence.or am i'm the only one stupid enough to listen?

I think Mickelson is actually right handed.

[MissouriHack]

I think Mickelson is actually right handed.

he is

[M2R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40learner

...

Best advice to myself or anybody is try and hit practice balls before the game. I tee off around 7am every week so I never warm up pre game.

I keep 2 whiffle balls in my bag for this reason. If I can't hit practice balls (and the wind isn't too strong) they are actually pretty good (compared to not hitting at all) as I really just want to loosen up and establish a tempo more than anything else. Only takes a minute or two to hit 6-10 short iron shots off to the side somewhere safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

...

Improving my "shot value" is pretty much what I am working on at the range now. I am trying to hit specific targets and repeat as many times as I can. When I get to 3 out of 5 or 6 hits within about a 10 yard circle, I move to another club. This does not happen very often because my typical shot pattern is as follows:

1. 50 degree (U) club- 5 yards
2. PW 6 to 8 yards
3. 9i I can get a dispersion pattern in the 10 yard range, unless I mishit a ball and it goes 15 yards off line and short
4. 8i to 6i is about 20 yards
5. 5i and 4i are about 30 yards
6. 21 and 18 degree hybrids are about 25 yards
7. 3W about 40 yards
8. Driver is about 30 yards wide and maybe 50 yards deep (some of this variation could also be due to random flight limited balls mixed in the buckets), the 30 yard side to side is definitely me.

I'll let you know if I can improve from where I am now. Only time and practice will tell.

That is great info, I love stats! If you would indulge me would you take note (or measure if it doesn't hinder play) your dispersion on U-9i during an actual round and report direction and distance separately.? The study noted in the "Is the long game more important than short game?" thread found that:

Quote:

For amateur golfers, distance errors on short game and sand shots are about three times larger than direction errors, and instruction or practice which focuses on reducing distance errors is a beneficial approach to lower scores.

And I experience this same 3 to 1 spread in the short clubs, but only during a round . At the range hitting several balls with the same club I actually develop a tempo and feel to where the dispersion in direction and distance is not representative of how I actually play under the gun. I was intrigued that you did mention direction and distance on 9i and driver, made me wonder if the other were more or less uniform.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M2R

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Improving my "shot value" is pretty much what I am working on at the range now. I am trying to hit specific targets and repeat as many times as I can. When I get to 3 out of 5 or 6 hits within about a 10 yard circle, I move to another club. This does not happen very often because my typical shot pattern is as follows:

1. 50 degree (U) club- 5 yards
2. PW 6 to 8 yards
3. 9i I can get a dispersion pattern in the 10 yard range, unless I mishit a ball and it goes 15 yards off line and short
4. 8i to 6i is about 20 yards
5. 5i and 4i are about 30 yards
6. 21 and 18 degree hybrids are about 25 yards
7. 3W about 40 yards
8. Driver is about 30 yards wide and maybe 50 yards deep (some of this variation could also be due to random flight limited balls mixed in the buckets), the 30 yard side to side is definitely me.

I'll let you know if I can improve from where I am now. Only time and practice will tell.

For amateur golfers, distance errors on short game and sand shots are about three times larger than direction errors, and instruction or practice which focuses on reducing distance errors is a beneficial approach to lower scores.

And I experience this same 3 to 1 spread in the short clubs, but only during a round . At the range hitting several balls with the same club I actually develop a tempo and feel to where the dispersion in direction and distance is not representative of how I actually play under the gun. I was intrigued that you did mention direction and distance on 9i and driver, made me wonder if the other were more or less uniform.

FWIW - and I certainly don't mean to give out my own advice on this - but I have heard different instructors on TV and in person advocate hitting a different club each shot when you practice.  I guess the theory being that since you don't get to hit 9i ten times in a row on the course, you shouldn't on the range either.  This might explain why you can't take it to the course.

Regarding Lihu's stats - I had missed that somehow since this thread started.  That seems fantastic.  Or maybe I don't understand specifically what you mean by dispersion pattern.  But I would never think of 30 feet as my dispersion pattern for 9i.  60 feet for 6i's?  I don't think I'm anywhere close to that.

Lihu - you have WIP for your handicap.  Do you have an estimate for what it is?

[rkim291968]

FWIW - and I certainly don't mean to give out my own advice on this - but I have heard different instructors on TV and in person advocate hitting a different club each shot when you practice.  I guess the theory being that since you don't get to hit 9i ten times in a row on the course, you shouldn't on the range either.  This might explain why you can't take it to the course.

Regarding Lihu's stats - I had missed that somehow since this thread started.  That seems fantastic.  Or maybe I don't understand specifically what you mean by dispersion pattern.  But I would never think of 30 feet as my dispersion pattern for 9i.  60 feet for 6i's?  I don't think I'm anywhere close to that.

Lihu - you have WIP for your handicap.  Do you have an estimate for what it is?

Sometimes I use hybrid strategy. I cycle through clubs until I have one that's not working.   Then, I hit it until I got it to work and then move on to next club.   I also simulate on course scenario.  There are few courses I remember all the holes.  I go through the clubs as if I am playing the course.   If I miss a drive and left 200 yard to green with no danger  spots around, I "go" for it with my 200 yard club.  Then, on to next hole.   Try it when you can't play in field b/c of rain.

My dispersion is somewhat tighter than Lihu's but when I miss, it's severe push to right (i.e, OB in real life situation).    I had rounds where I par or double a lot b/c of this tendency.

Yup, I want to know Lihu's handicap, too, especially, if Lihu and I were to have a match in coming spring.   No sandbagging .

[Meltdwhiskey]

Sometimes I use hybrid strategy. I cycle through clubs until I have one that's not working.   Then, I hit it until I got it to work and then move on to next club.   I also simulate on course scenario.  There are few courses I remember all the holes.  I go through the clubs as if I am playing the course.   If I miss a drive and left 200 yard to green with no danger  spots around, I "go" for it with my 200 yard club.  Then, on to next hole.   Try it when you can't play in field b/c of rain.

My dispersion is somewhat tighter than Lihu's but when I miss, it's severe push to right (i.e, OB in real life situation).    I had rounds where I par or double a lot b/c of this tendency.

Sometimes I actually use an old scorecard in my bag and try to virtually play whatever course it was.

Regarding these dispersion patters - either I'm not following what one is or I'm not nearly as good at golf as you guys. By dispersion pattern do you mean that when you hit your 6i approach, the ball ends up within a radius of 20 yards (60 feet) of the target most of the time?  If so, you are much better at golf than me.  I just google earthed my home course and it looks like the greens are somewhere around 15 yard radii.  This means if you played my course, and aimed for the center, you would get on the green an awful lot - and your miss would still end up pretty close.

I might green one from 6i distance once every few rounds.  I'll lean on the PGA tour stats again.  My 6i is in the 150-175 category.  Ian Poulter, Brandt Snedeker, Matt Kuchar etc green it from this distance about 60% of the time.  I'd think a bogey golfer is looking at maybe 5% from this range? 10%? 20%?

With a 9i pattern of 10 yards, you would rarely miss the green.  That is in the 125-150 for me.  Tiger from that distance?  70%.

With accuracy like this, I wouldn't think of a bogey golfer.  Did I miss something?  Is everyone here this tight?

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

...

Improving my "shot value" is pretty much what I am working on at the range now. I am trying to hit specific targets and repeat as many times as I can. When I get to 3 out of 5 or 6 hits within about a 10 yard circle, I move to another club. This does not happen very often because my typical shot pattern is as follows:

50 degree (U) club- 5 yards

PW 6 to 8 yards

9i I can get a dispersion pattern in the 10 yard range, unless I mishit a ball and it goes 15 yards off line and short

8i to 6i is about 20 yards

5i and 4i are about 30 yards

21 and 18 degree hybrids are about 25 yards

3W about 40 yards

Driver is about 30 yards wide and maybe 50 yards deep (some of this variation could also be due to random flight limited balls mixed in the buckets), the 30 yard side to side is definitely me.

I'll let you know if I can improve from where I am now. Only time and practice will tell.

That is great info, I love stats! If you would indulge me would you take note (or measure if it doesn't hinder play) your dispersion on U-9i during an actual round and report direction and distance separately.? The study noted in the "Is the long game more important than short game?" thread found that:

No, unfortunately, it is driving range statistics. I measured the size of the hills one morning at one particular home range (in my town) and measured all the feature distances before the first golfers arrive, and interpolated/triangulated the results using google earth.

You asked specifically about the U to 9i, but I will add the 8i as well:

First of all, I use my standard shot. I am not really able to "play" the ball, but sometimes I can get them high on purpose and sometimes put more lag in them for a lower more penetrating flight.

The way I determine the shot dispersion is estimating the relative distances of specific features on the range.

For instance, on the 100 yard marker, the hill is about 16 yards wide and approximately 22 yards front to back and a little diagonal to the range. The flat top region, near the pole, is approximately 9 yards across in front of a tiny mound. If land a ball near the pole and in front of the mound and the top flat area the shot is within an 8 yard landing area. You can further refine the distance by taking a simple ratio of where the ball lands between the pole and the end of the flat top region. For example, the flat top+/-4 yards across and the pole is about halfway between them, when a ball lands halfway between the pole and the end of the landing area we can estimate the distance as 2 yards. So, balls landing within this region have about a 4 yards dispersion.

There is a pole on a hill about 95 yards away, 152 yards, etc.

The 150 yard markers are usually off, but sometimes right on, but they are pretty easy to range with a laser.

The 7i is somewhere in between the short and the long irons...

For other clubs:

At 175 yards there is a mound that spans about half of the driving range. This has many features that when hit from different points on the driving range can give you side to side dispersion pretty accurately (+/-5 yards) I used a laser on them, but it is too hard to get. I need to find a time I can walk out and re-take some measurements.

Driver is pretty easy, 220 carry if you hit the ravine between the 175 hill and the "250" hill. 230 carry if you can see it land on the "250" hill. 270 if it lands on the back of the hill. 275 yards if you hit the oak tree next to the hill, but a little behind it. The side to side is relatively easy. The "250" hill is approximately circular so 50 yards around. The top mound is about 252 yards away measured with google earth.

There are target baskets that are about 1 yard wide and about 50 yards away (depending upon where we are hitting off the grass). Every now and then I get one in.

Other clubs are trickier, I can only do a relative to specific feature measurements, there are specific little mounds and dips which I have also measured. They are a bit outdated, now, because my distances have changed. Need to get out there one day to get better measurements.

Distance is a problem because I use range balls, and some are limited flight balls, this causes many shots over 150 yards to come up a little bit short. So, I save all the Titleist "range" balls and keep them for the stats. I end up hitting them all to specific targets to confirm the greater than 150 yard dispersion estimates.

Can you tell, I am an Archer? I like doing these things at the archery range as well, but everyone else does the same. We're a bit OCD about distances. When you are trying to hit a 12cm (10 ring) target from 70m away, you get that way.

[Lihu]

FWIW - and I certainly don't mean to give out my own advice on this - but I have heard different instructors on TV and in person advocate hitting a different club each shot when you practice.  I guess the theory being that since you don't get to hit 9i ten times in a row on the course, you shouldn't on the range either.  This might explain why you can't take it to the course.

Regarding Lihu's stats - I had missed that somehow since this thread started.  That seems fantastic.  Or maybe I don't understand specifically what you mean by dispersion pattern.  But I would never think of 30 feet as my dispersion pattern for 9i.  60 feet for 6i's?  I don't think I'm anywhere close to that.

Lihu - you have WIP for your handicap.  Do you have an estimate for what it is?

Not really, but I do know that I par quite a few more holes than about a month ago. However, just because I can hit the ball better, now, doesn't automatically translate to a better score. I am starting from a fresh set of scores and plan to turn them in in a couple months, when I have at least 10 full 18 hole rounds with my new swing then I'll post.

If I average all of cards with my old swing for the last 6 months, my hcp calculates to about 20. If I take the best 10 scores, closer to 18. Hence, I feel that I belong in this thread.

None of this means anything, because the first three rounds I played with my new swing made my scores much worse. I think it's because I stopped focusing as much on my short game because it was so much easier to get to the green than before.

Lately, I have improved my short game, by practicing it at least 10% (putting 1%) of the time, and the pars are just starting to come more naturally on the easier courses like Eaton Canyon and Brookside course 2. I have yet to score as many pars on Santa Anita.

By dispersion, I mean repeatability. I need to learn Key 5 before getting accuracy.