Jason Day Spits at Pace of Play, Vows to Slow Down

[DaveP043]

 

19 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

There's a happy medium though, no? Tennis, you have a certain amount of time to prepare to serve before you're penalized, abuse or ignorance of the rule notwithstanding. 

There's certainly a happy medium, and the rules give a player MORE than plenty of time, as @bkuehn1952 explained.  Its not like they're asking the players to run between shots.

1 hour ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Under the guidelines for Rule 6-7, a player is permitted 40 seconds to play a stroke. This 40-second time limit includes the first to play from the teeing ground, from the fairway and from around and on the putting green.

The PGA TOUR rules for pace of play includes the 40-second time limit, but also allows an extra 20 seconds (for a total of 60 seconds) under the following circumstances:
> The first player to play a stroke on a par-3 hole
> The first player to play a second stroke on a par-4 or par-5 hole
> The first player to play a third stroke on a par-5 hole
> The first player to play around the putting green
> The first player to play on a putting green

Under both sets of guidelines, the timing of a stroke on the putting green begins after a player has been allowed a reasonable amount of time to mark, lift, clean and replace his ball, repair his ball mark and other ball marks on his line of putt and remove loose impediments on his line of putt.

If the PGA would actually enforce their policy consistently, and assess penalty strokes for players who exceed this very generous time allowance, players would speed up.  Right now, there's no concern on the players' part, because the PGA hasn't assessed a slow-play penalty stroke for decades.

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, b101 said:

It's hard to imagine. I played a 4hr30 round for a fourball at Woburn behind a group of four playing off the tips with handicaps that must have been way north of 20 and that was painful. The thought of 2 balls making it round in 5 hours staggers me.

To put this more in perspective, this works out as a shot (assuming they shoot level par and make 27 putts) every 4 minutes, or every 7 minutes if we exclude putts. If I'm in a two-ball, I'm hoping to play a hole in under that time. And we don't hit fairways and greens that often...

Off topic, but when I saw Woburn, I did a double take. I live in Woburn, MA and we only have a 9 hole course! 

[natureboy]

What's the typical round time for similar size fields in amateur tournaments, state opens, or USGA qualifiers?

[b101]

5 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Off topic, but when I saw Woburn, I did a double take. I live in Woburn, MA and we only have a 9 hole course! 

Haha, it's a bit bigger than that one - they had the British Masters there a couple of years ago; it's a great track

http://www.europeantour.com/myeuropeantour/news/top-photos-from-the-british-masters/

---

Back on topic though, and I don't buy the argument that 'the PGA Tour can't do anything about it'. It's like diving/referee abuse in the Premier League - if they really wanted to stop it, they could, but just don't have the balls to take the flak that will come with it for the year or so before the pros found something else to moan about. 

[boogielicious]

Just now, b101 said:

Haha, it's a bit bigger than that one - they had the British Masters there a couple of years ago; it's a great track

http://www.europeantour.com/myeuropeantour/news/top-photos-from-the-british-masters/

---

Back on topic though, and I don't buy the argument that 'the PGA Tour can't do anything about it'. It's like diving/referee abuse in the Premier League - if they really wanted to stop it, they could, but just don't have the balls to take the flak that will come with it for the year or so before the pros found something else to moan about. 

I agree with that part. Unless they start losing TV dollars and sponsors, they don't have much incentive.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, b101 said:

Haha, it's a bit bigger than that one - they had the British Masters there a couple of years ago; it's a great track

http://www.europeantour.com/myeuropeantour/news/top-photos-from-the-british-masters/

---

Back on topic though, and I don't buy the argument that 'the PGA Tour can't do anything about it'. It's like diving/referee abuse in the Premier League - if they really wanted to stop it, they could, but just don't have the balls to take the flak that will come with it for the year or so before the pros found something else to moan about. 

For better or worse, the PGA Tour is owned by the players.  The Tour Commissioner is hired by the players.  What would be the likely outcome if the Tour decided to do something that pisses off a significant number of influential players?  Someone typing up a resume that lists "PGA Tour Commissioner" under past experience, on the street looking for his next job.  Unless a significant majority of the players decide they want to improve pace of play, the Tour won't do it.

[iacas]

52 minutes ago, natureboy said:

What's the typical round time for similar size fields in amateur tournaments, state opens, or USGA qualifiers?

I could look up the pace of play requirements - and we handed out penalties, too - at the national championship we had in Erie last year, but I remember it being under 4:00. And it was even less for the match play rounds.

They were in threesomes for qualifying. And many of the women weren't the youngest out there.

[No Mulligans]

3 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The below describes the current time standards on Tour.  At times when I play a casual round I have watched a player, whom I consider to be slow, prepare to hit a shot on a par 3 (or 2nd shot on a par 4, etc...).  I mentally count one... two... three...Rarely do I ever reach 30.  60 seconds is an immense amount of time, especially when you have someone telling you yardage, wind, etc... instead of checking it yourself.  Even 40 seconds is an age when one considers that one is probably prepping for one's own shot while the other player is taking their 40-60 seconds to hit.

 

Under the guidelines for Rule 6-7, a player is permitted 40 seconds to play a stroke. This 40-second time limit includes the first to play from the teeing ground, from the fairway and from around and on the putting green.

The PGA TOUR rules for pace of play includes the 40-second time limit, but also allows an extra 20 seconds (for a total of 60 seconds) under the following circumstances:
> The first player to play a stroke on a par-3 hole
> The first player to play a second stroke on a par-4 or par-5 hole
> The first player to play a third stroke on a par-5 hole
> The first player to play around the putting green
> The first player to play on a putting green

Under both sets of guidelines, the timing of a stroke on the putting green begins after a player has been allowed a reasonable amount of time to mark, lift, clean and replace his ball, repair his ball mark and other ball marks on his line of putt and remove loose impediments on his line of putt.

On the putting green the start of the timer is clear, I don't understand when the timer starts on the other shots.

[Deryck Griffith]

I was disappointed with Jason's take on this matter.  It kind of reminds me of when Rory said he didn't get into golf to grow the game.

In both instances / comments, they are very singular and "all I care about is me" types of attitudes that really avoid the big picture.

In the big picture, growing the game benefits PGA tour players as more people participating and watching the game live and on TV only helps the tour to gain more tournament sponsors (easier) and will continue to raise purses.  This "attitude" that they live in a world that us "average Joe's" don't understand is poppy cock.  If you are going to ink an apparel deal with Nike golf because your status on the tour entices people to wear "said" Nike golf apparel, then "how you play" will have an effect on those same people who support Nike by buying their clothes because you are wearing them.  So in the big picture, if growing the game keeps this whole Golf engine churning, and we can agree that faster play on Tour will help to set an example for amateurs and THIS example will help to grow the game (people who have families won't have to muscle through a 5 hr round at their club) then his attitude and response plain out sucks in every which way.

Athletes in all sports always miss the big picture because their egos get in the way when they are playing and it's always disappointing but never a surprise... at least for me it isn't.

 

 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Deryck Griffith said:

I was disappointed with Jason's take on this matter.  It kind of reminds me of when Rory said he didn't get into golf to grow the game.

In both instances / comments, they are very singular and "all I care about is me" types of attitudes that really avoid the big picture.

FWIW, I don't take them the same way. I can understand where Rory's coming from: time he spends just "growing the game" is time he's not spending growing HIS game (or spending time with his sponsors, or his friends, or whatever). That kinda makes sense and he can still "grow the game" by playing well and not being a douche - by being someone that kids can admire and respect and so on. So that's fine, and I don't really care about Rory's comment.

Jason Day's commit is a slap in the face to the PGA Tour, and what's sad is that they're just going to let him do it. One of the game's better and most influential, marketable player has basically told the PGA Tour "I'm bigger than you." He's flipping them the bird, spitting in their face, and saying "they can fine me a few times, or put me on the clock. They're not going to actually punish me. I'll take as long as I freaking want. I'm saying it now, and I'm gonna do it, and they're not going to do a damn thing about it."

It's sad. It's disrespectful. It's soured me on Jason Day.

[Buckeyebowman]

22 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

But you had previously said this:

So you really do have a problem with it, because of the exact point @iacas was making and you were affirming.

Uh, no! Why? Because I'm not on Tour! If you had read my entire post you'd see that I'm talking about 24 to 36 handicappers who take all day to size up a shot. Then, when they finally swing, they scrape it along the ground 20 yards and instead of being out of my way, they are still in my way!

And thinking about it further, it seems that watching a televised golf event can fool you into thinking things aren't taking as long as they really are. Why? Because they can cut away from a dawdling group to show someone else on the leader board putting for birdie on 12. Then, someone else with a bunker shot on 16. Then, back to the dawdlers. TV can always put some action on the screen.

Hey, as long as it's all wrapped up by 6:00PM Eastern, everybody's happy, right?

[Golfingdad]

23 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Uh, no! Why? Because I'm not on Tour! If you had read my entire post you'd see that I'm talking about 24 to 36 handicappers who take all day to size up a shot. Then, when they finally swing, they scrape it along the ground 20 yards and instead of being out of my way, they are still in my way!

And thinking about it further, it seems that watching a televised golf event can fool you into thinking things aren't taking as long as they really are. Why? Because they can cut away from a dawdling group to show someone else on the leader board putting for birdie on 12. Then, someone else with a bunker shot on 16. Then, back to the dawdlers. TV can always put some action on the screen.

Hey, as long as it's all wrapped up by 6:00PM Eastern, everybody's happy, right?

Where do those 24-36 handicappers learn those deliberate routines?

[Missouri Swede]

21 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Hey, as long as it's all wrapped up by 6:00PM Eastern, everybody's happy, right?

Except you, if the behavior of tour pros affects the playing practices of the guys on your course. (Which you agreed, it does.)

[Marty2019]

20 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

The below describes the current time standards on Tour.  At times when I play a casual round I have watched a player, whom I consider to be slow, prepare to hit a shot on a par 3 (or 2nd shot on a par 4, etc...).  I mentally count one... two... three...Rarely do I ever reach 30.  60 seconds is an immense amount of time, especially when you have someone telling you yardage, wind, etc... instead of checking it yourself.  Even 40 seconds is an age when one considers that one is probably prepping for one's own shot while the other player is taking their 40-60 seconds to hit.

 

Under the guidelines for Rule 6-7, a player is permitted 40 seconds to play a stroke. This 40-second time limit includes the first to play from the teeing ground, from the fairway and from around and on the putting green.

The PGA TOUR rules for pace of play includes the 40-second time limit, but also allows an extra 20 seconds (for a total of 60 seconds) under the following circumstances:
> The first player to play a stroke on a par-3 hole
> The first player to play a second stroke on a par-4 or par-5 hole
> The first player to play a third stroke on a par-5 hole
> The first player to play around the putting green
> The first player to play on a putting green

Under both sets of guidelines, the timing of a stroke on the putting green begins after a player has been allowed a reasonable amount of time to mark, lift, clean and replace his ball, repair his ball mark and other ball marks on his line of putt and remove loose impediments on his line of putt.

I don't see how you can enforce a rule like this, when the word "reasonable" is in there.  That is too vague.   I also don't see how the PGA can enforce a rule like this on the back 9 or a major championship.   The viewers would howl!   "How can you penalize this guy and not that guy!"  

One thing they don't want to do is affect the outcome by enforcing penalties that are judgment calls.  I don't want it to be like the NFL, where the refs are affecting the outcome.  The PGA Tour is a nice clean sport where people earn exactly what they deserve and there's not a lot of arguing about how players are getting screwed by the refs. 

So if it were up to me, I would say, don't charge them strokes.   Just assess fines and give the money to charity.  Make the fine go up with each offense until on the 5th or 6th offense, the fine is great enough to hurt.   Start off with a $5,000 fine, and go up to $50,000 or something.   And definitely, don't assess the fine in the middle of the round.  Wait until the round is over, and then assess the fines.   Remember what happened to DJ in the US Open last year?  I don't want to muck up the tournaments by assessing penalties in the middle of rounds. 

What I would do is try to change the behavior without affecting outcomes of tournaments. 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Marty2019

[Hatchman]

My take would be to enforce the rule for consistency of the game, as done in other sports.  No different than requiring the Pitcher to pitch within the alloted time between pitches or the umpires calls a ball for each infraction.  It happens, but not seen often at the Major league level.  The process seems simple, warn and announce to the player or players, then call the infraction and immediately assess the penalty if it continues. They will know where they stand on the spot or shortly thereof, except hole 18 which might not get enforced.  

[bkuehn1952]

An idea that would never happen but some variation of this would be interesting:

When a player reaches some level of slow time warnings during the season, the next event in which he plays he is given a bright red tour bag with no logos.  He has to use that bag for the entire event.  If he continues to gather slow play times, the next event he gets green head gear and shirt with no logos in addition to the red logo-less bag.  His sponsors will be pissed.  Everyone will know he is a tortoise.

[Hatchman]

And scarlet letters on his front "S" "P" also.  Why not.  It worked earlier somewhere.

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

I don't see how you can enforce a rule like this, when the word "reasonable" is in there.  That is too vague.   I also don't see how the PGA can enforce a rule like this on the back 9 or a major championship.   The viewers would howl!   "How can you penalize this guy and not that guy!"  

One thing they don't want to do is affect the outcome by enforcing penalties that are judgment calls.  I don't want it to be like the NFL, where the refs are affecting the outcome.  The PGA Tour is a nice clean sport where people earn exactly what they deserve and there's not a lot of arguing about how players are getting screwed by the refs. 

So if it were up to me, I would say, don't charge them strokes.   Just assess fines and give the money to charity.  Make the fine go up with each offense until on the 5th or 6th offense, the fine is great enough to hurt.   Start off with a $5,000 fine, and go up to $50,000 or something.   And definitely, don't assess the fine in the middle of the round.  Wait until the round is over, and then assess the fines.   Remember what happened to DJ in the US Open last year?  I don't want to muck up the tournaments by assessing penalties in the middle of rounds. 

What I would do is try to change the behavior without affecting outcomes of tournaments. 

The players are currently subject to fines, based on the number of times they're put on the clock, yet Jason Day says he'll play as slow as he pleases.  Based on the prize money available, I don't think fines matter to the stars.  If they believe they play better, and win more, by playing slow, they'll gladly donate $50k out of a $1.5 million check. On the other hand, fines will really hurt a fringe player, whose $10 k check for 63rd place could be cut in half by a $5k fine.  I read a suggestion that fines be publicized, rather than assessed secretly, in an effort to exert public opinion against the players (and their sponsors, who may have more influence on individual players).  

I believe the only way to force a change in behavior is to assess strokes, whenever and wherever the infraction occurs.  Its only by affecting the outcome that we'd see the slow players speed up.  And the "cost" of that stroke penalty is somewhat proportional to the player's standing in the event, so its not excessively punitive on the guy who just barely made the cut.

 

40 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

An idea that would never happen but some variation of this would be interesting:

When a player reaches some level of slow time warnings during the season, the next event in which he plays he is given a bright red tour bag with no logos.  He has to use that bag for the entire event.  If he continues to gather slow play times, the next event he gets green head gear and shirt with no logos in addition to the red logo-less bag.  His sponsors will be pissed.  Everyone will know he is a tortoise.

Could the slow player be forced to wear a hat shaped like a turtle's shell??