It's All About the Ball - and Ego

[Buckeyebowman]

On 2/27/2017 at 0:23 PM, 70sSanO said:

I'm not writing it off, but I see a trend in other sports to "dumb down" aspects of the sport to make it easier for the casual recreational player.  I'll pick on tennis because a relative of mine 20 years my younger talking about pickleball because there was less running.

It just seems that a lot of younger people are not willing to put in the time to improve if they don't do well fairly quickly in a lot of activities.  My only point about golf is that since distance is king, and there is an ego involved, lack of distance, and shanks, rollers, etc., might make someone feel... what's the point?  The game has a humbling effect without having to endure Shooter for 18 holes.

As far as shorter tees, they are only a benefit on the first shot because even if you are lying the same, the shorter hitter is using a longer iron or hybrid.

John

You make some good points, especially about the lack of patience of some youth, But then, think about it. Where are all these great young golfers coming from? The game either bites you or it doesn't. I read a great quote by David Feherty where he talked about the first time he got a fairway wood up in the air. He was about 9 or 10 and had sneaked onto the practice range at dusk. He tagged an old "sheep beater" of a 2 wood and could see the ball silhouetted in the sky above the rooftops of the town. He said, and I quote, "The goosebumps flooded me so fast I shuddered!"

But I have a real problem with your last paragraph. Case in point. Several times a year my buddy and I play a 2 person scramble against his Sister and her girlfriend. At one course we guys decided to play from the "senior" tees. Why not? We ARE seniors! And at this course, the women usually get a significant advantage over the seniors. But on a couple of holes the tees are relatively close together, and the ladies "squeaked" about that a little.

So, on the back 9 we decided to play from the whites, despite the fact the putting for so many birdies and eagles on the front 9 was so much fun! Well, we didn't putt for nearly so many birdies and eagles on the back, and wound up losing the match!

Not that it was all that big a deal. We had to buy a few drinks and some sandwiches. My comment is about our experience on those two nines. The front 9 was fun, the back 9 was a struggle! If you put us that much closer to the green,  we're going to have that much of a shorter shot in.

Of course, this depends upon where you play, and how much of an advantage they give seniors, or women, over the standard tees. I've played courses where the senior tees were literally 5 strides in front of the whites! What kind of an advantage is that?

[70sSanO]

An example of the point on my last paragraph is that on a 420 yard Par 4 that is only playing 370 from the forward tees and I hit a 200 yard drive and my opponent hits a 250 yard drive the forward tees normalize our drives.  However I'll be hitting a 5 wood into the green and my opponent is hitting a 7 iron.  The forward tees only help the length difference off the tee, so the forward tees won't truly balance the game to the putting surface between longer and shorter hitters.

But that is not the case on a Par 3 course because every tee shot is a shot into the green.

I'm not looking to see any changes made to the equipment or game.  Just making an observation that a short course is the only true equalizer.

John

 

[1badbadger]

6 hours ago, 70sSanO said:

An example of the point on my last paragraph is that on a 420 yard Par 4 that is only playing 370 from the forward tees and I hit a 200 yard drive and my opponent hits a 250 yard drive the forward tees normalize our drives.  However I'll be hitting a 5 wood into the green and my opponent is hitting a 7 iron.  The forward tees only help the length difference off the tee, so the forward tees won't truly balance the game to the putting surface between longer and shorter hitters.

But that is not the case on a Par 3 course because every tee shot is a shot into the green.

I'm not looking to see any changes made to the equipment or game.  Just making an observation that a short course is the only true equalizer.

John

 

The actual concept of the different sets of tees isn't supposed to be where both players hit their approach shot from the same yardage,it's supposed to work so both players are hitting the same club into the green.  Are the tees set up correctly to make that happen?  Usually not.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, 1badbadger said:

The actual concept of the different sets of tees isn't supposed to be where both players hit their approach shot from the same yardage,it's supposed to work so both players are hitting the same club into the green.  Are the tees set up correctly to make that happen?  Usually not.

With the vast variation between players, it's really up to the players to understand this concept, and to choose tees accordingly.  Its not often that they really understand, and even more rare that there are tees set up appropriately

[Blackjack Don]

1 hour ago, 1badbadger said:

The actual concept of the different sets of tees isn't supposed to be where both players hit their approach shot from the same yardage,it's supposed to work so both players are hitting the same club into the green.  Are the tees set up correctly to make that happen?  Usually not.

 

25 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

With the vast variation between players, it's really up to the players to understand this concept, and to choose tees accordingly.  Its not often that they really understand, and even more rare that there are tees set up appropriately

This is very interesting to me because I'd never thought of any of this. I never really thought about the white tees as being an equalizer. The white tees I've played are probably one to one and a half club lengths more. That isn't enough is it? 

A revelation--The course was designed for one tee box, only.

Perhaps, as Eric suggested, this is a maintenance/budget issue? We aren't course designers, so it's very hard for most of us to see the course as he/she designed it. Maybe future course designs should take into consideration the impact of one little change to golf: It's not about putting, but about the tee shot.

I guess as a rookie, I'm naive, although I'd prefer to believe I'm seeing this all with fresh eyes. Having played in the Sixties, a lot in the Seventies, and none until now, I have an odd historical perspective, or as a long time fan--The Game Hasn't Changed.

A story today in USA TODAY talked about golf losing 600,000 participants a year. Forget about thinking outside of the box. To stop this slide, we're talking about a whole rethinking of golf. It has to change, or it will become polo. And who here can afford a pony?

Edited March 2, 2017 by Blackjack Don
Accidently fired off before finish

[DaveP043]

Just now, Blackjack Don said:

This is very interesting to me because I'd never thought of any of this. I never really thought about the white tees as being an equalizer. The white tees I've played are probably one to one and a half club lengths more. 

Yeah, some courses have only minor differences in the yardages, some have 20 or 30 or even 50 yards between tees.  To get a similar challenge, players should be hitting similar clubs into the green.  This is the aim of the "Tee it Forward" campaign, to try to get players on the appropriate tee for their personal combination of distance and skill.

[Blackjack Don]

11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yeah, some courses have only minor differences in the yardages, some have 20 or 30 or even 50 yards between tees.  To get a similar challenge, players should be hitting similar clubs into the green.  This is the aim of the "Tee it Forward" campaign, to try to get players on the appropriate tee for their personal combination of distance and skill.

To what tee box? The courses I've played, the red tees aren't significantly further ahead than another club length. So, most red tees are only a couple of clubs different than the blacks? Is this not a function of a course being designed with one tee box in mind?

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

To what tee box? The courses I've played, the red tees aren't significantly further ahead than another club length. So, most red tees are only a couple of clubs different than the blacks? Is this not a function of a course being designed with one tee box in mind?

I'm not sure what the bold question is about.  Where I play, there's in the range of 500 to 600 yards difference between each succeeding set of tees, so an average distance of 30 yards or so.  More modern course designs have similar wide ranges.  Older designs are often as you describe, with only minor yardage differences between tees.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

To what tee box? The courses I've played, the red tees aren't significantly further ahead than another club length. So, most red tees are only a couple of clubs different than the blacks? Is this not a function of a course being designed with one tee box in mind?

Then you play some really screwy courses.

http://whisperingwoodsgc.com/golf/course
6804 vs. 4760 = 113 yards per hole difference

http://www.erie.pa.us/golf/Downing.aspx
73 yards per hole difference

Etc.

[Blackjack Don]

43 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This is the aim of the "Tee it Forward" campaign, to try to get players on the appropriate tee for their personal combination of distance and skill.

Tee it forward to where? The red tees might be too far for most women. How much closer are they for men? And who is going to put their ego aside and ripe a five iron from the tee?

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

Then you play some really screwy courses.

http://whisperingwoodsgc.com/golf/course
6804 vs. 4760 = 113 yards per hole difference

http://www.erie.pa.us/golf/Downing.ar

Etc.

Or maybe I don't notice where the red tees are unless they are right in front of the white tees, or I'm playing in a foursome with three old ladies. One, maybe.

(Sorry, it always seems to be four of us old ladies.)

[Vinsk]

I really don't understand  those who want the game to be easier. I love golf but certainly get frustrated and even depressed at times when my game is going bad. But it seems childish to me to think making the game easier would brighten my mood. I guess there are those types who focus so much on 'winning.' I'd be much more content if I played my best and placed last rather than to win yet knew my swing was off but got some lucky breaks, good bounce, hit a tree then onto the green..etc.  Play the damn game and enjoy the challenge. You'll never be as good as those we watch on tv. That's unrealistic. But think about this: Really no other sport allows a complete amateur to accomplish, even just once, a feat we see a pro do on tv with such excitement. I mean, making a free throw or a 3 point shot..big deal, any of us can do that. But slam a solid iron shot and land it 3-4' from the pin and make birdie? Awesome. And many, many complete hacks have had that shot, that experience. As for the pros..who cares if they drive it 400yds? I think it's awesome. We've recently had the lowest round in a tournament, 58, and guess what? It wasn't done by a big hitter. Distance is critical of course. But the idea of dumbing down balls so the pros don't hit it as far? Stupid. Period. Golf is hard enough and will always win. No matter how gorilla-like these guys become out there, golf will win. Enjoy the improvements of both equipment, technology and the players. It's just the flow of life in sports.

[jkelley9]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

Then you play some really screwy courses.

http://whisperingwoodsgc.com/golf/course
6804 vs. 4760 = 113 yards per hole difference

http://www.erie.pa.us/golf/Downing.aspx
73 yards per hole difference

Etc.

Interesting. Would you say that's average "good" forward tee separations?

My courses are like @Blackjack Don is stating (I think). I've attached my home course with the delta distances.

Would you say these are poorly spaced? I kind of feel like they are?

Edit: I updated to include championship-senior (full width) of tees. Appears 42.5 yards/hole average. Is this better? 

Edited March 2, 2017 by jkelley9

[DaveP043]

35 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure what the bold question is about.  Where I play, there's in the range of 500 to 600 yards difference between each succeeding set of tees, so an average distance of 30 yards or so.  More modern course designs have similar wide ranges.  Older designs are often as you describe, with only minor yardage differences between tees.

 

9 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Tee it forward to where? The red tees might be too far for most women. How much closer are they for men? And who is going to put their ego aside and ripe a five iron from the tee?

Or maybe I don't notice where the red tees are unless they are right in front of the white tees, or I'm playing in a foursome with three old ladies. One, maybe.

(Sorry, it always seems to be four of us old ladies.)

I should have clarified, we have four sets of tees, the tips (Gold), the normal men's tees (Blue), the "senior mens/long ladies" tees (White) , and the forward tees (Red).  You could gain 500 yards from my normal Blue tees by moving forward one set, and over 1000 yards by moving up two sets.  Many courses now have 5 or more sets of tees, giving you a lot of potential to find a set that fits with your game.  As @iacas said, if its really only 20 yards or so from the very back tees to the very forward tees, you're playing a pretty unusual golf course.

[Blackjack Don]

The red tees are "senior" now? Not women's tees? (Sorry, I have been asleep for decades. When did this happen?)

Not where I play! These guys play the blacks! No wonder I've gotten flack. If I'd been playing Eric's courses from the senior tees, I wouldn't have to hit my driver! Hallelujah! lol

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Many courses now have 5 or more sets of tees, giving you a lot of potential to find a set that fits with your game.

It was something Eric said which really opened my eyes. It's about cost. I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find a muni anywhere with five tee boxes. Pebble doesn't count. 

[phillyk]

1 minute ago, Blackjack Don said:

The red tees are "senior" now? Not women's tees? (Sorry, I have been asleep for decades. When did this happen?)

Not where I play! These guys play the blacks! No wonder I've gotten flack. If I'd been playing Eric's courses from the senior tees, I wouldn't have to hit my driver! Hallelujah! lol

It might be PC, but there is no women's tee, senior tee, whatever.  Play the tees appropriate for your game or where you want.  If it's the red's, who cares?  I'll play reds sometimes because it's fun to go shoot several under par.

You'll find some courses have added family tee boxes.  These are typically placed in the fairways at less than 200yds for those who are new to the game or want to play something different.  

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

I should have clarified, we have four sets of tees, the tips (Gold), the normal men's tees (Blue), the "senior mens/long ladies" tees (White) , and the forward tees (Red).  

 

3 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

The red tees are "senior" now? Not women's tees? (Sorry, I have been asleep for decades. When did this happen?)

Please read a little more closely, the white tees are use by both senior (and other distance-challenged) men and a few longer-hitting women.  But the color of the markers really shouldn't matter, I've seen teal, orange, purple, and a whole rainbow of other colors.  Choose a set of tees that fits your game!  Or make up your own game, if that helps you enjoy it more.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

The red tees are "senior" now? Not women's tees? (Sorry, I have been asleep for decades. When did this happen?)

Move beyond the idea that "red = women". They're just tees at certain yardages. If you play from them, they're your tees.

5 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

It was something Eric said which really opened my eyes. It's about cost. I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find a muni anywhere with five tee boxes. Pebble doesn't count. 

Downing is a muni. Whispering Woods is not all that expensive, either.

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

Please read a little more closely, the white tees are use by both senior (and other distance-challenged) men and a few longer-hitting women.  But the color of the markers really shouldn't matter, I've seen teal, orange, purple, and a whole rainbow of other colors.  Choose a set of tees that fits your game!  Or make up your own game, if that helps you enjoy it more.

As you know some courses don't even use colors.

I think Caledonia uses different kinds of ducks, for example.

[CarlSpackler]

USGA's National course rating database is starting to incorporate slope/ratings for men AND women on the same set of tees. This allows you as a man to play from the forward most tees and it is adjusted accordingly.