Brandel Chamblee going into controversy mode (Tour Player Angle of Attack Debate)

[iacas]

You can have hands forward and still hit up.

Not difficult to understand.

[Pretzel]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

You can have hands forward and still hit up.

Not difficult to understand.

 

Unless your initials are B.C.

[natureboy]

4 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Unless your initials are B.C.

Yeah he's a photo/video and not a D-plane guy and doesn't really think about swing / impact in 3-D.

I think BC's partly right that hands ahead mean the club is descending into the ball somewhat when the hands are ahead if you're using the ground as the frame of reference.

But I think the secondary axis tilt moves the bottom of the D-plane up off the ground so the net effect is a positive angle of attack for a larger dynamic loft. If Rors' hands were even with the ball he might narrow his spin loft a bit and reduce his spin, but it works for him. He has amazing awareness of where the clubhead is so I expect he can count on repeated contact slightly high on the face for spin reduction that overall is probably optimal for him. I sure wouldn't change anything if I was him.

[Pretzel]

30 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I think BC's partly right that hands ahead mean the club is descending into the ball somewhat when the hands are ahead if you're using the ground as the frame of reference.

 

Not really. I can keep my hands one to six inches in front the clubhead along the horizontal plane (using the ground as the frame of reference as you suggest) while still swinging up without too much difficulty. I can make it even more exaggerated if I go one step further and add a chicken wing follow through. 

All you have to do to make something like that happen is push off the ground or straighten your spine through impact. Either of those actions would begin to move your clubhead vertically without changing the location of your hands relative to your clubhead. You can also bend your elbows to achieve something similar, though it is more likely to somehow affect the position of your hands relative to the clubhead.

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I think BC's partly right that hands ahead mean the club is descending into the ball somewhat when the hands are ahead if you're using the ground as the frame of reference.

@Pretzel said it already, but no. If you're not throwing out the angle and your hands are rising (or the rate at which your hands are rising is > the rate at which the radius is increasing by throwing out the trail wrist angle), the club will be ascending.

People de-loft their putters yet hit up on the ball. Same deal.

43 minutes ago, natureboy said:

But I think the secondary axis tilt moves the bottom of the D-plane up off the ground so the net effect is a positive angle of attack for a larger dynamic loft.

I'm going to give you the benefit of assuming that's just poorly worded, because the D-Plane is almost always off the ground with a driver… it's teed up, and the origin of the D-Plane is at the point of max deformation by the center of the golf ball (on the clubface, typically).

SAT tends to move the low point of the swing back, but it can also rotate the baseline of the D-Plane to the right, lead to a rapid overtaking rate (i.e. the top of the D-Plane goes from right to left-pointing pretty quickly), etc.

Dynamic loft isn't tied to AoA. If that were the case the spin loft would remain consistent. That's not the case. Many players who hit up have also learned how to minimize loft so they can narrow the spin loft. Many players who hit down have to almost increase the spin loft because they benefit from a little more spin since they launch the ball lower.

43 minutes ago, natureboy said:

If Rors' hands were even with the ball he might narrow his spin loft a bit and reduce his spin, but it works for him.

If they were even with the ball, instead of slightly ahead of the ball? In my experience he'd do the opposite: he'd increase his dynamic loft more than he'd increase his AoA, thus delivering more spin loft.

[jamo]

Call me crazy, but I'm beginning to suspect Brandel Chamblee may not be a genius. 

[natureboy]

3 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Not really. I can keep my hands one to six inches in front the clubhead along the horizontal plane (using the ground as the frame of reference as you suggest) while still swinging up without too much difficulty. I can make it even more exaggerated if I go one step further and add a chicken wing follow through. 

All you have to do to make something like that happen is push off the ground or straighten your spine through impact. Either of those actions would begin to move your clubhead vertically without changing the location of your hands relative to your clubhead. You can also bend your elbows to achieve something similar, though it is more likely to somehow affect the position of your hands relative to the clubhead.

Sorry, in my rush I may have been less precise in my terms than I wanted. He's partly right in that with the hands ahead of the ball the clubhead wants to release to the ball on a downward arc using the tangent to the hand path at impact as a frame of reference.

I totally get that the secondary axis tilt (or other actions) can tilt the whole swing arc upward by the secondary axis tilt raises the bottom of the D-Plane so much that the effective AoA on the ball is still positive even though the clubhead is still arcing down relative to the hands.

I think I get what you are saying. You'd have to straighten your spine away from the target though, not stand 'straight up', yes? Or are you saying you just tug the clubhead vertically upward so its path through the ball is net positive? The latter doesn't sound like a great stock swing technique. Do you use it?

Edited January 21, 2017 by natureboy

[natureboy]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm going to give you the benefit of assuming that's just poorly worded, because the D-Plane is almost always off the ground with a driver… it's teed up, and the origin of the D-Plane is at the point of max deformation by the center of the golf ball (on the clubface, typically).

If they were even with the ball, instead of slightly ahead of the ball? In my experience he'd do the opposite: he'd increase his dynamic loft more than he'd increase his AoA, thus delivering more spin loft.

Slight mis-wording and slight error in conception or use of terms.

I meant that the extra secondary axis tilt moves the bottom of the D-plane from about horizontal for a 'sweep release' to angled up away from the ground relative to the target.

What I've read, Dynamic loft is influenced by AoA?

Spoiler

Dynamic Loft is the amount of loft on the club face at impact and is measured relative to the horizon.

The golfer’s attack angle, how the shaft bends, how the golfer releases the club head, whether the club face is open or closed to the club path, and where the ball makes contact on the club face can all affect the dynamic loft.

That was a helpful clarification of terms. I get that Rors is 'compressing the ball' along an upward angle - he's narrowing his spin loft like de-lofting an iron only on a rising path with the hands and club. And he likely also consistently hits it slightly high on the face for more spin reduction from gear effect.

I still expect that in his mis-interpretation, BC was focused like I said on the 2-D aspect of the club moving 'down' (along an arc) to the ball relative to the hands (tangent of the hand path at impact).

Edited January 21, 2017 by natureboy

[iacas]

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

Sorry, in my rush I may have been less precise in my terms than I wanted. He's partly right in that with the hands ahead of the ball the clubhead wants to release to the ball on a downward arc using the tangent to the hand path at impact as a frame of reference.

You don't get to write as much as you write and then claim that you're making mistakes because you're in a rush.

Brandel wasn't "partly right" because he didn't say anything to couch the phrase. Hell, the guy misread horizontal swing path or launch angle as the AoA. Defending yourself or Brandel right now is a non-starter. You've both said dumb things.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

I totally get that the secondary axis tilt (or other actions) can tilt the whole swing arc upward by the secondary axis tilt raises the bottom of the D-Plane so much that the effective AoA on the ball is still positive even though the clubhead is still arcing down relative to the hands.

Who cares? The end result is not what the clubhead is doing relative to the hands, but what it's doing to horizontal.

If the clubhead/shaft isn't inline with the lead arm the clubhead is still going down relative to the hands… that's third-grade geometry. I think we can all do third-grade geometry.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

Slight mis-wording and slight error in conception or use of terms.

No, you were wrong. Call a spade a spade.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

I meant that the extra secondary axis tilt moves the bottom of the D-plane from about horizontal for a 'sweep release' to angled up away from the ground relative to the target.

It's very simple. More SAT tends to move the left shoulder back and thus move the low point back. That's it. But it's not universal and players can still do things to hit down with a lot of SAT.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

What I've read, Dynamic loft is influenced by AoA?

Influenced by, not welded to. It's difficult to hit down on the ball with the shaft leaning back - the hands would have to be going down at a faster rate than the radius is shortening.

Please stop using spoilers. 95% of the time you use a spoiler, it's because you know it's off topic.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

That was a helpful clarification of terms. I get that Rors is 'compressing the ball' along an upward angle

The ball isn't compressed much at all. It's deformed.

3 hours ago, natureboy said:

I still expect that in his mis-interpretation, BC was focused like I said on the 2-D aspect of the club moving 'down' (along an arc) to the ball relative to the hands (tangent of the hand path at impact).

BC - and you - made several mistakes in your analysis, including (BC) as I've said misreading horizontal launch or club path as the AoA or something. Dumb. Negative is both down AND left in the coordinate system and he confused that. Dumb.

[boogielicious]

14 hours ago, jamo said:

Call me crazy, but I'm beginning to suspect Brandel Chamblee may not be a genius. 

He's genius with hair styling! 

[nevets88]

17 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

He's genius with hair styling! 

He's resting on his laurels. Once you get written up in the NYT (who is usually a little late to the game) as a genius, it's all downhill from there. 

[natureboy]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

You don't get to write as much as you write and then claim that you're making mistakes because you're in a rush.

Well it was the case, regardless of what you think. Part was poor use of terms, part (about the spin loft) was a misconception / error. Glad I made it too, because I had forgotten that point from James Leitz' video.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

The guy misread horizontal swing path or launch angle as the AoA.

It's probably time for him to at least get familiar with the system and terms. I don't understand why he seems so biased against it for 'mechanizing' swings. It's just one more tool like video (which he uses a lot), and it's a particularly good / useful tool.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

If the clubhead/shaft isn't inline with the lead arm the clubhead is still going down relative to the hands… that's third-grade geometry. I think we can all do third-grade geometry.

Perhaps not to you, but I thought it was an easy mistake to make from the static snapshot of impact. But Rory was in motion and his hands were still elevating as the club was lining up. I forgot that and likely so did BC.

20 hours ago, iacas said:

The ball isn't compressed much at all. It's deformed.

I wasn't really talking about what happens to the ball itself. 'Compressing the ball' is a term many (perhaps not you) use as shorthand or alternate term for narrowing the spin loft via de-lofting (or other methods I'm not aware of).

Quote

Fredrik Tuxen - one of the founders of TrackMan refers to spin loft as compression itself.

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by natureboy

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Well it was the case, regardless of what you think. Part was poor use of terms, part (about the spin loft) was a misconception / error. Glad I made it too, because I had forgotten that point from James Leitz' video.

If you say so. You've said a lot of things lately that don't make sense or are easily recognized as wrong.

5 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Perhaps not to you, but I thought it was an easy mistake to make from the static snapshot of impact. But Rory was in motion and his hands were still elevating as the club was lining up. I forgot that and likely so did BC.

Third grade geometry. Just think about it for a few seconds.

[natureboy]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Third grade geometry. Just think about it for a few seconds.

Sometimes an observer can get tripped up by the 2-D static image. BC wasn't the first. Won't be the last.

One of the reasons modern tools like Trackman and 3-D systems are very useful.

Edited January 22, 2017 by natureboy

[nevets88]

Here we go...

 

 

[colin007]

omg what an asshat. its like that saying, if you walk into a room and cant figure out who the dummy is, its you.

he needs to recognize when hes out of his league in picking a "fight" with guys like grant.