Brandel Chamblee going into controversy mode (Tour Player Angle of Attack Debate)

[iacas]

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

I kind of interpreted @saevel25's point more about the tendency for higher lofted clubs to be harder to 'curve' using path / swing direction and less lofted clubs being easier to add shape with path / swing direction adjustments.

When we're talking about the same club, less spin means a narrower spin loft.

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

Higher loft (with same CG etc.) clubs tend to impart a more significant share of the club's energy into backspin.

That's an odd way of saying it. More spin at the same clubhead speed means less energy transferred to the ball - it's a more glancing, less direct blow.

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

Now I do think that higher lofted clubs will tend to be more prone to resulting curvature/axis tilt than lower lofted clubs from adjusting dynamic lie angle (on an uneven lie e.g.) all else (face/path) being equal.

Yeah…

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

I stand corrected, that would be my mistake. I hadn't run any of the numbers, it was just a thought based on an incorrect assumption I had made. I still would be interested in seeing some sort of study done on it, simply because I don't know exactly how much the spin angle will change between the two scenarios (you might know, but your comment appeared to just show a general change in spin axis).

It's just trig. If you have a set of spin numbers with some face/path/AoA/etc. numbers you can extrapolate a pretty wide range of other values within 10° pretty easily and relatively accurately.

2 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Grant Waite is on a roll. Video on hitting up vs down.

 

I'll have to watch that one later. His earlier video was basically the same as Joe's without the notepad and with the little mistake I noted before.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Grant Waite is on a roll. Video on hitting up vs down.

 

Good stuff!

TL:DW ...

Grant hits a ball with a 99mph clubhead speed with 3.5 up attack angle and it flies 252 and rolls to 281.  He hits one at 98.9mph clubhead speed with 4.5 down attack angle and it flies 221 and rolls to 259. 

[natureboy]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

When we're talking about the same club, less spin means a narrower spin loft.

That's an odd way of saying it. More spin at the same clubhead speed means less energy transferred to the ball - it's a more glancing, less direct blow.

But talking about different clubs, narrow spin loft is easier to achieve with less lofted clubs...not as much shaft lean required to narrow the spin loft for the same AoA, yes?

I didn't mean that a more lofted club imparted more energy to the ball than a less lofted one. Just that the glancing blow transfers a greater portion of the club momentum into ball spin than a less lofted club (AoA and amount of deloft held equal).

[iacas]

Just now, natureboy said:

But talking about different clubs…

We're not.

We're talking about a very specific thing here, and I'm not going to even begin to indulge your off-topic leanings as we all know where that will end up. Nobody's ever prevented you from starting new topics, but we're tired of your constant diverting of topics.

And if you think you'll get less leeway than others… you're right, because others can ask an OT question, get a response or two, and be done with it.

[natureboy]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

We're not.

Gotcha. Driver only for this thread. I thought a more general discussion of D-plane was in play since the video you posted compared different clubs to make the point about the influence of loft on axis tilting.

[iacas]

Just now, natureboy said:

Gotcha. Driver only for this thread. I thought a more general discussion of D-plane was in play since the video you posted compared different clubs to make the point about the influence of loft on axis tilting.

That clearly illustrated only that lower spin loft (lower spin) leads to tilting the spin axis more easily given the same difference in the horizontal measurements.

[Missouri Swede]

4 hours ago, MrDC said:

Brandel admitted his mistake and apologized, so he did the right thing-

Eventually, Chamblee deleted his original tweet and apologized for the mistake. The 30 of 32 players had a negative HLA (Horizontal Launch Angle), which relates to the direction of the ball, not the angle of attack. To further understand swing analysis.

[natureboy]

4 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Grant Waite is on a roll. Video on hitting up vs down.

 

21 yards total distance difference with same swing speed.

So the extra time on the ground with a bit of extra landing spin decreases total distance by a lot. Even tour fairways aren't frictionless. But it might be a good strategy if you're worried about running through the fairway into very thick, deep rough.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

21 yards total distance difference with same swing speed.

So the extra time on the ground with a bit of extra landing spin decreases total distance by a lot. Even tour fairways aren't frictionless. But it might be a good strategy if you're worried about running through the fairway into very thick, deep rough.

The spin has almost nothing to do with it. And better to fly it to where you want it, not roll it there.

[boogielicious]

14 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Grant Waite is on a roll. Video on hitting up vs down.

 

This is what I love about the internet - someone says something that clearly doesn't correlate with the data, people chime in and make a conclusion based on real data. It's basically XKCD on steroids. In the process, we all learn more, people ask questions they otherwise would not have. We get a guy (Grant Waite) pulling off the road to make a video, an instructor videos himself doing math on a notepad and people actually watch it, @iacas makes his video above. It doesn't happen all the time, but the means is there. If only all the incorrect stuff said during golf broadcasts were dispelled. I don't mind people wanting to stir up the pot, just do it with good data. What we witnessed was a very public collective, dude, you're so wrong, and I bet the typical Golf Channel demographic is barely aware of it.

Good video!

10 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

I miss Gilda!

[nevets88]

13 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Good stuff!

TL:DW ...

Grant hits a ball with a 99mph clubhead speed with 3.5 up attack angle and it flies 252 and rolls to 281.  He hits one at 98.9mph clubhead speed with 4.5 down attack angle and it flies 221 and rolls to 259. 

Another note I took from the video. His SS is 116/117. He said he found it hard to "slow down" to 100. I just thought that was interesting. It's not the first time this was said by a pro on camera.

Question for those in the industry - that Trackman spreadsheet everyone refers to that says 1 degree down average for the driver. Is that outdated? If you took a survey today, maybe the average would be different?

[nevets88]

 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Another note I took from the video. His SS is 116/117. He said he found it hard to "slow down" to 100. I just thought that was interesting. It's not the first time this was said by a pro on camera.

Question for those in the industry - that Trackman spreadsheet everyone refers to that says 1 degree down average for the driver. Is that outdated? If you took a survey today, maybe the average would be different?

It's tough to slow down to the same number. That's all.

It is becoming increasingly outdated.

[nevets88]

 

[acerimusdux]

19 hours ago, natureboy said:

But it might be a good strategy if you're worried about running through the fairway into very thick, deep rough.

But where more distance control is needed, you can always use less club, choke down a bit, use a 3/4 swing, etc. Hitting down seems a relatively inefficient way to control distance. 

 

[natureboy]

3 hours ago, acerimusdux said:

But where more distance control is needed, you can always use less club, choke down a bit, use a 3/4 swing, etc. Hitting down seems a relatively inefficient way to control distance. 

My point with that post is that the best 'on average' approach may not always be the best approach in specific scenarios. Personally, I try to hit up. I also like the grip-down option with driver.

There's likely plenty of holes or prevailing course conditions (fairway slope, trees tight to edge, wind, extremely lush rough, etc.) where a more level to slightly down strike for a lower trajectory and more roll while still keeping the overall higher club speed and forgiveness of your driver isn't such a sucker play as Grant's very extreme examples of very high positive (near Tour max) and extreme negative AoA.

I've seen Bubba hit lots of hard, low burners with his driver where he is definitely not hitting up. But on average he does. It's a play somewhere between all out aggressive for max distance with driver and a much more conservative clubbing down. I've seen at least one study that pros tend to hit 3w more wayward than driver anyway.

Not everyone hits up well. Until you learn to (or if you can't) lowering the trajectory (vs swinging up) might be a good play for some strategic situations and players.

Edited January 20, 2017 by natureboy

[nevets88]

McIlroy on shaft lean and AoA, a one more thing to Chamblee. 

 

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, nevets88 said:

McIlroy on shaft lean and AoA, a one more thing to Chamblee. 

 

I don't see why BC continues to argue about something he clearly doesn't fully understand. Rory is small in statue, yet is one of the best drivers in golf. Rory obviously has studied and worked to improve with actual data.