More realistic scoring for amateurs

[iacas]

45 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

The Course Rating manual defines a bogey golfer as a 20 handicapper.

And in practical use it's roughly a 15-20 handicapper. Someone who will shoot around 90.

People don't consult the handicapping manual to see if they're a "bogey golfer."

[Hacker James]

setting personal pars through your own scoring system could help some gain confidence. A parallel might be in debt paying using the "snow ball" effect where you pay down bills by attacking them one at a time vigorously, using the increase in available cash to pay down the next e.t.c.  Mathematically, paying off loans with high balance and high interest may produce the best results, however paying off the lowest balance/high interest loans first gives one a tremendous boost in confidence and willingness to stick with the program in that results are identified and achieved easier and faster.

[Blackjack Don]

Okay, forget about the scoring. Why is that such a big deal? The shots are counted just the same. How many shots do you think it would take you in a round from 200 yards out?

What I found interesting was playing the hole starting at 200 yards. I felt like I was playing golf. Sometimes it took two shots to get on the green. Many times it took three. One time four, but that was just sad. I used every club from sand wedge to 3 hybrid. I had to be careful of the bunkers, and look for the best place to hit my first shot. It might not be traditional, but it was the best experience I've ever had on a golf course. Why does it have to start from the tee box? Will I be arrested for heresy? Strung up?

Try it. If it's as bad as you think, fine. It might be a new experience you might find interesting. Or not. Who is hurt here? Heck, until I can hit a driver consistently--and that might take a year--I am going to do this. It's fun, it's good practice, and I lose a lot less time looking for balls. Except twice. 

Come on, guys. I'm not pissing on the Alamo's walls, am I? Putting down links golf? I found something different, have tried it and found it much better than I had thought it would be. An open mind ain't a bad thing. 

Or I can be banned. I would understand that, too. What an a--hole, huh? Always ticking people off with stupid ideas! Geez!

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[Pretzel]

5 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Okay, forget about the scoring. Why is that such a big deal? The shots are counted just the same.

 

That's the point people tried to make at first, is that changing the par doesn't change how many strokes a person would take. It would just be a superficial thing.

5 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

How many shots do you think it would take you in a round from 200 yards out?

 

1

I didn't see anyone dig on that idea in this thread. In fact, I recommended it for people who are still learning to play or who want to have some fun as it follows the generally recommended practice of teeing it forwards. 

[dkolo]

28 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Okay, forget about the scoring. Why is that such a big deal? The shots are counted just the same. How many shots do you think it would take you in a round from 200 yards out?

What I found interesting was playing the hole starting at 200 yards. I felt like I was playing golf. Sometimes it took two shots to get on the green. Many times it took three. One time four, but that was just sad. I used every club from sand wedge to 3 hybrid. I had to be careful of the bunkers, and look for the best place to hit my first shot. It might not be traditional, but it was the best experience I've ever had on a golf course. Why does it have to start from the tee box? Will I be arrested for heresy? Strung up?

Try it. If it's as bad as you think, fine. It might be a new experience you might find interesting. Or not. Who is hurt here? Heck, until I can hit a driver consistently--and that might take a year--I am going to do this. It's fun, it's good practice, and I lose a lot less time looking for balls. Except twice. 

Come on, guys. I'm not pissing on the Alamo's walls, am I? Putting down links golf? I found something different, have tried it and found it much better than I had thought it would be. An open mind ain't a bad thing. 

Or I can be banned. I would understand that, too. What an a--hole, huh? Always ticking people off with stupid ideas! Geez!

---

 

Yeah, do what you want, dude, no one's going to stop you. I'd argue that putting this thread in the Rules of Golf sub-forum might be giving people an incorrect impression about what you're actually proposing, but yeah, go for it, play from wherever you want, I think it's great.

But do try to quote posts or use @ replies to direct your posts at specific users because it makes it a bit hard to follow who you're talking at or responding to at times.

https://thesandtrap.com/how-to/quote-posts/

https://thesandtrap.com/how-to/mention-members/

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Okay, forget about the scoring. Why is that such a big deal? The shots are counted just the same.

It's the topic of the thread!?!?

31 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

How many shots do you think it would take you in a round from 200 yards out?

Just over 3. But what's that got to do with anything? I started my daughter from 150 to 200 yards out on many holes when she was first learning. It's fine.

31 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Why does it have to start from the tee box? Will I be arrested for heresy? Strung up?

Nobody's said anything like that.

31 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Come on, guys. I'm not pissing on the Alamo's walls, am I? Putting down links golf? I found something different, have tried it and found it much better than I had thought it would be. An open mind ain't a bad thing. 

Or I can be banned. I would understand that, too. What an a--hole, huh? Always ticking people off with stupid ideas! Geez!

Dude, I don't know where you're even getting this stuff.

Grow a thicker skin or something… nobody's doing anything like you're suggesting, but they are discussing the topic. That's the point of a discussion forum: to discuss. Not everyone's goign to agree that your original idea has merit. And at the same time, if it works for you, what do you care what other people think or have to say?

Banned? You haven't even gotten a warning. We don't ban people here very often, outside of the occasional (rare) spammer.

2 minutes ago, dkolo said:

I'd argue that putting this thread in the Rules of Golf sub-forum might be giving people an incorrect impression about what you're actually proposing, but yeah, go for it, play from wherever you want, I think it's great.

I'll move it.

[Lihu]

25 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Okay, forget about the scoring. Why is that such a big deal? The shots are counted just the same. How many shots do you think it would take you in a round from 200 yards out?

A lot of golfers would thank you for doing this.

25 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

What I found interesting was playing the hole starting at 200 yards. I felt like I was playing golf. Sometimes it took two shots to get on the green. Many times it took three. One time four, but that was just sad. I used every club from sand wedge to 3 hybrid. I had to be careful of the bunkers, and look for the best place to hit my first shot. It might not be traditional, but it was the best experience I've ever had on a golf course. Why does it have to start from the tee box? Will I be arrested for heresy? Strung up?

Nah, many of us would love you for doing this! Really, no problems. . .

You could also play a round using only irons from the tee box, and I did this many times in the past. The average person can hit some iron 140 yards, and you're in a better position because you can hit a 3 hybrid. Do this as well. No one will complain unless you spend too much time looking for balls.

If you are not worried about scoring, get really cheap balls and just walk out to where you think the balls went and keep on moving forward.

Seriously, doing this you are being nice to golfers behind you. However, to improve your game try just hitting irons. Not sure if you have executive courses or 9 hole courses or not, but those are also an option. The way you are describing playing is what you would normally do at a par 3 course with a driving range.

You hit on a driving range for an hour or so trying to work on your driver, then go play 9 or 18 holes on a par 3 course. Many people start off that way as well.

[MrDC]

The like that the game I play is essentially the same as the pros, I want to feel the game they play, I want to know I'm far worse and to marvel at them, I don't want any type of system to make me feel better, I feel great shooting bogey golf as it is, don't need any other system.

[jkelley9]

I get that the scoring and handicapping system can be tedious and/or frustrating for some folks, but the resounding consensus is that it does work.

Thinking outside the box and spitballing ideas, no problem. But like others have said, the straight 5 across the board just waters down progress. Like... a lot. The worst, in my opinion.

The source of frustration may stem from being weak in one area of the game. Short game, putting, approach shots, rescue shots, driver, etc, etc, etc. You feel like you're hitting the ball well, or you're an expert putter, but your scores suck.

Ultimately, the surest (lol, I'm being facetious in a way) to evaluate a golfer's skill would be to statistically evaluate every shot they make in a round: "How close did the ball get to their target, compared to all golfers, taking in all conditions"

But that's insane. Game Golf and other statistics based stuff if you're being honest and accurate can help you improve, but isn't factored into the handicapping system. The handicapping system has to have a foundation of "overall game." The game (objective) is to get it in the hole, in the least amount of strokes (stroke play...). 

You SHOULD do whatever makes YOU feel better about your golf game, so long as it doesn't impact other golfers in pace of play, competitive rounds, or something else that is intrusive to the existing systems in place. If you want to tee off at 200, dude, seriously, DO IT. I would applaud you. If you're enjoying the game that way and aren't slowing me down (below acceptable pace), then I'm all for it. And I wouldn't look down on you as a player for it. 

But if you want to compare yourself to other golfers, accurately, for a game of stroke scoring, the USGA (or the like, dunno what the European and others are) handicapping system is the way to do it!

[Hacker James]

@Blackjack Don  fwiw, I feel you brother!  whatever works for you. I appreciate your posts and reviews and honesty. 

 

"just don't go all in every hand, just because it feels kewl"

Edited January 26, 2017 by Hacker James

[chilepepper]

I wouldn't change the scoring or bifurcate it or anything else. 1. Keep a handicap. 2 apply that handicap to get your net score. Feel better now? I'm not a pro or expert golfer and I don't compare my game to theirs.....well, I try not to. I do keep trying to improve MY game and MY handicap. 

[tlazzol]

16 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

What I found interesting was playing the hole starting at 200 yards. I felt like I was playing golf.

---

 

You do what works for you, as long as it doesn't interfere with other golfers trying to do the same.  I don't see this as a problem.  It's just not for everyone, and that's okay. 

[cutchemist42]

On 20/01/2017 at 1:36 PM, iacas said:

Sorry, but you'll be disappointed to find that it's not thinking outside the box at all. In fact, golfers originally started out trying to beat "bogey" or "Colonel Bogey" and then as players improved they came up with the term "par" to describe the score an expert player should strive to achieve. Your "outside the box" thinking is actually the way people played the game in the 1800s…

Also, while your idea is fine as a mindset for the bogey golfer or thereabouts, a lot of people would not really be challenging themselves if they were content with a score around 90. You don't have to be that good to shoot in the upper 70s to low 80s, and you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you considered every hole a par five (or every hole par+1).

So… good for some, but not good for "amateurs" far and wide.

Kinda asking outloud, but related to your post, when did par start becoming a regular achievement by golfing pros?

[DaveP043]

20 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

Kinda asking outloud, but related to your post, when did par start becoming a regular achievement by golfing pros?

Based on this website, "par" became the standard for scoring right around the beginning of the 20th century.

http://www.scottishgolfhistory.org/origin-of-golf-terms/bogey/

Further back, in 1870 a writer suggested that "perfect play" over Prestwick's 12 hole course would be a score of 49.  Young Tom Morris posted a score of 2-over for 3 rounds (36 holes) to win that year's Belt at the Open Championship.

[Blackjack Don]

Again with the scoring and par. Fahcrying out loud! Par has changed many times over the years. When golfers started routinely hitting 300 yards, they moved par. When they moved the tee boxes back, they changed par. Clubs, balls, exercise routines, all have changed par. Above, hell, they used to play a 12 hole round? No kidding? So why is this idea of separating Expert Level from Amateur level and playing to a different score so radical to so many? Trust me, I could never ski double-black diamonds. They clearly marked it, and I skied a different set of trails. Experts and everyone else play different courses. Or should.

I played another round, yesterday, this time at my home course. I've played this course many times, but this was fun. My home course in Vegas is very narrow, and very often one has to hit blind approaches to the green. Trying to figure out which side to come in with, how far to leave it, which clubs, was great. I don't do this when I'm playing from the tees. My fault, obviously, but there's a lot to think about on a golf course. Eliminating tee shots lets me work on mid-irons to wedges to putting, much more easily. 

The tee shot is so important in golf that it overpowers the game from 200 yards in. If one doesn't hit even a decent-not-good tee shot, the rest of the hole is trying to recover. I have a tee shot that leaves me 200 yards, in the fairway, every hole. From there it becomes a different game, one that this amateur can play with some success. From the tees, 2 out of 18? If I'm lucky.

Doing this on a regular course isn't the same as an executive or par three course. You'll have to see it for yourself. If you can make a 3 every hole, then obviously, this isn't for you. Play the pro level. I never asked anyone who could ski the double-blacks to stay on the green diamonds with me. In fact, we both are playing the same hole, just starting from a different point. As far as comparing myself to other golfers, I don't have the need. I also don't need the stress. I'm here for the fun.

Everyone I've told this too, or played with the last two days has thought it was a cool idea. Maybe they are just being polite. No one immediately dismissed it. Again, try it. If you don't see any merit, no problem. But for a significant majority of golfers, this is something they would enjoy if they knew about it, and tried it. I believe it.

The game is supposed to be fun.

PS--I wasn't angry about anything, or upset. If you knew me, and knew my history, you'd know why. I was making fun of the thread, and me. Smiling the whole time.

BTW, I played yesterday's 18 holes from 200 yards in right at 2 hours. I practiced for an hour and played for 2. Just the right amount of golf.

[Hacker James]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you Don. People have stated that if it suits you, you find enjoyment in it, and derive a benefit, then by all means do it. Others have simply stated, it is not for them. I sometimes will play a practice round "best ball" when there is nobody behind me,

If somebody wanted to, they could figure out handicap for each hole, develop the appropriate slope rating, then hit from 200 yards out. The result would then be in line with traditional scoring. That would entail a lot of extra work and to me not necessary when we have indices to compare and judge improvement, as the handicap system provides adequate methodology for that.

I agree that playing on executive courses, or par three pitch and putts is not the same and I prefer to avoid them altogether, not to say, that I would not occasionally participate as a social event.

I like your idea and will probably at some time or other, give it a try. Right now, I am on my quest to break 80 again, but if it does not happen, I will not be disappointed.  Hell,there are a lot of things that I used to do, that I no longer am very good at. 

Next time in Vegas, I may make it a point to look you up if that is alright with you. I have a  couple of friends who live there. One in Summerlin, and another out near Nellis. Heck, might even drop in on Paul Wilson as we never got together as we had planned a couple of years back. I've always wanted to give Bear's Best a try anyway. 

 

"Pocket deuces rule"

Edited January 26, 2017 by Hacker James

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Again with the scoring and par. Fahcrying out loud! Par has changed many times over the years. When golfers started routinely hitting 300 yards, they moved par. When they moved the tee boxes back, they changed par. Clubs, balls, exercise routines, all have changed par. Above, hell, they used to play a 12 hole round? No kidding?

No one is criticizing you for making these suggestions. It's just that you have a very strange perception of par especially coming from a 20+ handicap.

Secondly, not that many people hit 300 yards, and moving back the tees was to try to create separation of scores for the professionals. My home course has been around for like 75 years, and as far as I know the par rating has stayed the same.

Getting back to the handicap issue. Let's say you have a 25 handicap. This means that you typically break 100 on a course. Your course handicap would be somewhere north of 25 strokes so if you shoot 28 over you probably shot to your handicap.

This means that you could basically shoot 2 over on most holes and get that occasional nice bogey hole, and still maintain your handicap. Sometimes you might shoot a 110, and sometimes break 100 with a mid to high 90s score.

What's wrong with that?

 

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So why is this idea of separating Expert Level from Amateur level and playing to a different score so radical to so many? Trust me, I could never ski double-black diamonds. They clearly marked it, and I skied a different set of trails. Experts and everyone else play different courses. Or should.

Just keep those tips from pointing down for too long. . .

Seriously, I ski whatever, and it doesn't take enormously great athleticism nor "expert" skill level to do so. We have a place called "Mt. Baldy" within 40 minutes of my house that has "diamonds" that would be rated double (or worse) at most every other ski resort. Our doubles are probably "name worthy" like at many Canadian resorts such as Sunshine Village. Actually, even some of our intermediates would be diamonds at most places, even at Alta (which I really like). However, many people ski those fine. I patrolled there for a year, and to be perfectly honest there were no more accidents there than anywhere else I've patrolled (I should note here that I am not a so called expert skier, and I patrolled just for the free skiing).

 

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I played another round, yesterday, this time at my home course. I've played this course many times, but this was fun. My home course in Vegas is very narrow, and very often one has to hit blind approaches to the green. Trying to figure out which side to come in with, how far to leave it, which clubs, was great. I don't do this when I'm playing from the tees. My fault, obviously, but there's a lot to think about on a golf course. Eliminating tee shots lets me work on mid-irons to wedges to putting, much more easily. 

Instead of moving up only 200 yards on some holes, try moving up 220 yards or something that gets you around the blind approach position.

This will also give you an idea of how far you would want to drive the ball and which tees to play from when you do start making the tee shots.

 

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The tee shot is so important in golf that it overpowers the game from 200 yards in. If one doesn't hit even a decent-not-good tee shot, the rest of the hole is trying to recover.

So true. . .that's where having more distance with other clubs helps. Never panic, though. Just hit your longest and most reliable club that will advance you without more trouble and "shoot for bogey".

 

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I have a tee shot that leaves me 200 yards, in the fairway, every hole. From there it becomes a different game, one that this amateur can play with some success. From the tees, 2 out of 18? If I'm lucky.

This is a bad situation to begin with.

My average par 4, from the tees I play, are about 400 yards. This leaves me with 140 yards on average. Of course there are a couple monster holes and some slightly longer 175 yard type approaches, but for the most part 9i or less. This is exactly right for my 258 yard median drive.

So, if I were to play a course that has 200 yards left on average, I would have to drive 300+ yards to be "comfortable" on it. That's not for me. . .

 

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Doing this on a regular course isn't the same as an executive or par three course. You'll have to see it for yourself. If you can make a 3 every hole, then obviously, this isn't for you. Play the pro level. I never asked anyone who could ski the double-blacks to stay on the green diamonds with me. In fact, we both are playing the same hole, just starting from a different point. As far as comparing myself to other golfers, I don't have the need. I also don't need the stress. I'm here for the fun.

Not exactly the same, but if you "master" par 3 courses, you will likely play a lot better on the regular courses. If you play really well on executive courses, your play will translate nicely on the shorter holes, and you might need an extra stroke on the longer holes.

 

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The game is supposed to be fun.

That's the main thing. Don't even score yourself for a while, just have fun with what you like to do on the course.

It sounds like you don't play slow either, so that's really good.

Best wishes on the course, and keep on having fun!

 

[NJpatbee]

I have no problem with par being the score an expert golfer should score. But I am a 17 HCP and if I shoot my HCP I do not have 17 bogies and 1 par.  The fact is that I usually have 4-6 pars, maybe a birdie, and offset those scores with a triple and some doubles.  But playing from the correct tees (middle for me) there isn't a hole on my home course that I have not shot par on.  Sure I may wind up with an 88 or 90, but it is satisfying to make par or birdie on a tough hole even though I jack my next drive OB!