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Blackjack Don

More realistic scoring for amateurs

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3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

I'd like to see some 1kind of a separation between pro golf and amateur golf. Thirty under par? Seriously?

 

Thirty under par is what you'd see some pros shooting if you changed the par to 90. Pros can shoot 60 or better. 60-90 = -30, or 30 under par.

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Why shouldn't the average golfer have a realistic score to shoot for?

 

The average golfer does have a realistic score to shoot for. Often times golfers aim to break 100, or aim to break 90, or sometimes even to break 80. Those are all realistic goals for different golfers to have. Every golfer is different, so every golfer's personal goal should be different and set by them to be realistic and achievable, rather than having a blanket "par 90" type deal.

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

How many out there would be happy to move forward to beat the number?

 

Many people are still quite happy breaking the aforementioned "barriers" in scoring, regardless of what the par rating of the course is. I know I was ecstatic the first time I shot in the 80's or in the 70's (and 60's).

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

They have no chance of ever beating the number at par. But they should be expected to.

 

Why should every golfer be expected to beat par? Par is an arbitrary benchmark set based upon the ability of an expert golfer, nothing more. It means nothing to your final score.

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

It's just a different game, and there should be a way to separate the two.

 

I'm curious what you mean by "it's just a different game". What two things are you comparing in this statement? It isn't entirely clear from the given context.

3 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

If five is a good score for every hole, then maybe people would play the course with the LSW-like ways, instead of being frustrated they can't go for the green in two all the time? Like the pros.

 

The par rating of a hole doesn't change what a good score on that hole is. Also, as a heads up, if you read LSW wins you'll find you're likely better off trying to hit the green in as few strokes as possible more often than not. While it depends on the individual player's ability to hit such a shot, of course, you will generally tend to score better if you hit each full shot as close to the green as you reasonably can.

 

I just don't see any benefit to be gained from making everything a par 5. All it does is change a benchmark that is already arbitrarily set in the first place, for an equally arbitrary reason. Leave the par where it is, and set your overall goals based upon your final score, not how many over or under par you were. Better yet, set a goal based upon the scoring differential from your round (and, by extension, your handicap), which takes into account the difficulty of the course as well as your score that day.

The handicap system does what you're looking to accomplish in a much more precise and elegant form. It gives you a number to aim for based on the best 10 of your last 20 rounds, and if you match or beat that number you know you had a good day. If you didn't match it, it just wasn't your best day on the course. Either way, it's the most realistic goal for any golfer that steps out onto the course.

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4 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

I've always played GOLF. As my late friend Mike used to say, "If you are playing by the rules, you playing 'slap-and-tickle'". I've been known to play into the green and pick up my ball if I'm out practicing right after the greens have been punched. Perhaps I want to change the rules of basketball so you aren't allowed to block the shot of someone under 5'-8" outside the 3 point line. Perhaps a goal shouldn't count in hockey if the goalie wasn't looking. It's golf. Love it, or leave it.

::Old curmudgeon rant over::

About as old and surly as a turtle hitting puberty? :-D

Yeah, I agree, that golf should be played as it is. The rules are fair and the scoring/ratings makes sense.

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The present handicap system puts ever one on a level playing field, if you start tinkering with a good system it go down hill. To change every hole to a par 5 would be boring and loose interest in the game. Golf is a ability game, weather you a scratch player or a 25 handicapper, the aim is to lower your score and thus your handicap, so most people set a goal to break, say 90 strokes, once that is archived the goal is reset to a new goal target. Would you change the scoring in basketball say every hoop was a 3 pointer, don't think so, every hole a 5 par don't think so.

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5 hours ago, iacas said:

I agree that it can be a bit more than semantics.

People place importance on par. If I call a 475-yard hole a par four, people will be disappointed with a 5. Call it a par 5 and they'll be happy with a 5.

The "number" can affect the type of shot someone chooses too. If they're 230 out on a "par 4" surrounded by sand, they might hit their 3W. If they're 230 out on a "par 5" they'll probably hit a shot that keeps them short of the monstrous, disastrous greenside bunkers.

So true! On some courses, some new some familiar to me, I will play a particularly monstrous par 4 as a par 5. And if I get down in 5, I'll be very happy with that result since trying anything "daring" might result in a score far worse!

This also got me to thinking about where the phrase "sub-par performance" came from. Obviously it means doing less than your best, but it had to be coined by people who did not play golf!

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2 hours ago, Patch said:

What would it hurt if the casual, non handicap keeping golfer just added a stroke per hole for their own enjoyment? Par 3s beome 4s. Par 4s become 5s. Par 5 become 6s. (90)

Because no matter how hard I try, bogey seems like a failure. Maybe I'm the only person in the whole entire world he feels that. "Oh my god, he made a bogey on the last hole to LOSE the THE Masters Open!" If you don't understand the feeling, the we'll have to move on.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but it is worth airing. IMHO

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10 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Because no matter how hard I try, bogey seems like a failure. Maybe I'm the only person in the whole entire world he feels that. "Oh my god, he made a bogey on the last hole to LOSE the THE Masters Open!" If you don't understand the feeling, the we'll have to move on.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but it is worth airing. IMHO

So you'd rather change golf for everyone else than just change your own personal expectations? No offense meant, but the easier solution of the two by far would be to understand your current abilities and set goals accordingly.

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29 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Because no matter how hard I try, bogey seems like a failure. Maybe I'm the only person in the whole entire world he feels that. "Oh my god, he made a bogey on the last hole to LOSE the THE Masters Open!" If you don't understand the feeling, the we'll have to move on.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but it is worth airing. IMHO

For some golfers, and their talent, bogey is a good number. There have been several times in my own game where bogey was pretty good considering where I started my second shot from.

I still say the higher scoring golfers are still going to shoot the same scores their talent allows them. A consistant 92 golfer might look at a par 90 and not feel to bad about it. A 88 scorer will feel real good about their game. A 100 scorer not so good, will try to improve.. 

I am not talking about changing the game for everyone. Par is just a number in my book. As a player progresses they could change their personal par from 90 to 80 as a scoring goal. 

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4 hours ago, Lihu said:

Pace of play. That extra stroke translates to at least a minute per shot. A minute and a half a hole? You can wait for them at the tee box, and I'll be your playing partner who disappears to empty holes scattered around the course typically with 1.5 over par per hole golfers holding up other players. . .

@Lihu, I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Because no matter how hard I try, bogey seems like a failure. Maybe I'm the only person in the whole entire world he feels that. "Oh my god, he made a bogey on the last hole to LOSE the THE Masters Open!" If you don't understand the feeling, the we'll have to move on.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but it is worth airing. IMHO

Set whatever goal you want for yourself. Changing the game "for amateurs" is a non-starter, IMO. As I said, many amateurs are shooting par, or 75, or 81, or 68… so they're totally fine playing to a par the way par is established.

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1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

Because no matter how hard I try, bogey seems like a failure. Maybe I'm the only person in the whole entire world he feels that.

Why does bogey seem like a failure? What did you expect when you took up golf? It's a tough game.

As another high capper, a bogey can feel pretty good or pretty crappy, it just depends.

l hit a green in two on a longish par 5 last year. Was the closest opportunity I've ever had at a legitimate eagle. 4-putted for bogey. Even at my level, that was an epic failure and it sucked ass.

But there have been bogey's I've been ok with.

A nice long drive on a par 4 that ends up behind a tree. I punch out, hit the green in 3, and 2 putt to make bogey. I consider that a success.

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8 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

I have some first year cards on a shelf in the garage. Yikes and double yikes. I'm not really sure how I kept going.

That's me still. 

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10 hours ago, Hatchman said:

Not a bad idea.  I used this system starting out.  5 across the board.   Then I would concentrate on the par 3's to gain a stroke or two, try and handle the par 5's, and treat the 4 as three to get on and two to get in for 5.   Handle the short par 4's.

That's funny, that's exactly what I do, right down to the mindset of attacking par 3s. I feel like I've begun to score better and enjoy the game more since reframing the game this way in my mind. And, really, that's all the original poster needs to do: change your perspective. You don't need an official decree or a rule change to do that. Your score still will be whatever it will be.

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12 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

How many out there would be happy to move forward to beat the number?

There are already conditions in place to try and assist golfers.  One - Nothing bogs down a course faster sometimes that a more current forward tee type player with an desire to play the back tee at 7,000 like we see here at our course.  Can be a little rough on us waiting.  Playing back is more about realized abilities.

A lot of people think they can throw a baseball on a line to first base from deep short to nip a runner.  Most then soon realize maybe on a softball or a little league field.  Separation of skill.

 

 

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10 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Why does bogey seem like a failure? What did you expect when you took up golf? It's a tough game.

But there have been bogey's I've been ok with.

Sure, everyone has bad holes, or ones that start off innocuous then end up being horrible ordeals where you're just glad you didn't make a triple or a quad or worse. . .

 

10 hours ago, iacas said:

@Lihu, I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense at all.

Yeah, that's the last post I do in haste like that, because I didn't even mean what I stated. . .

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On 1/20/2017 at 11:48 PM, Gator Hazard said:

That's me still. 

It's all relative. Got out this weekend both days and was blushing a bit during both rounds. My old reliable 5-wood has turned into a snake.. 

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1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

It's all relative. Got out this weekend both days and was blushing a bit during both rounds. My old reliable 5-wood has turned into a snake.. 

Ha-ha.  I felt that way about my 5 Hybrid and 6 iron last weekend.  They usually hold up well for me and can hit them somewhat reliably, but not last time I played.  Hey, at least you got to get out and hit the ball around up there, that had to feel good at least.

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On 1/20/2017 at 5:41 PM, Kalnoky said:

Alternately, there are executive courses which are Par 62. They are affordable and a great place to go when you need a confidence boost. There is a very affordable one near my house, the greens and fairways are immaculate. I love playing there.

Exec courses are a great place to learn the game without getting too beat up. Back in the day there used to be a lot of local or vacation spot short 9-holers that were a bit more inviting to beginners.

One effect of so much broadcast golf is that many end up comparing themselves to the pros instead of the fellow duffers from the neighborhood.

Edited by natureboy

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On 1/20/2017 at 8:19 PM, Pretzel said:

Thirty under par is what you'd see some pros shooting if you changed the par to 90. Pros can shoot 60 or better. 60-90 = -30, or 30 under par.

The average golfer does have a realistic score to shoot for. Often times golfers aim to break 100, or aim to break 90, or sometimes even to break 80. Those are all realistic goals for different golfers to have. Every golfer is different, so every golfer's personal goal should be different and set by them to be realistic and achievable, rather than having a blanket "par 90" type deal.

Many people are still quite happy breaking the aforementioned "barriers" in scoring, regardless of what the par rating of the course is. I know I was ecstatic the first time I shot in the 80's or in the 70's (and 60's).

Why should every golfer be expected to beat par? Par is an arbitrary benchmark set based upon the ability of an expert golfer, nothing more. It means nothing to your final score.

I'm curious what you mean by "it's just a different game". What two things are you comparing in this statement? It isn't entirely clear from the given context.

The par rating of a hole doesn't change what a good score on that hole is. Also, as a heads up, if you read LSW wins you'll find you're likely better off trying to hit the green in as few strokes as possible more often than not. While it depends on the individual player's ability to hit such a shot, of course, you will generally tend to score better if you hit each full shot as close to the green as you reasonably can.

 

I just don't see any benefit to be gained from making everything a par 5. All it does is change a benchmark that is already arbitrarily set in the first place, for an equally arbitrary reason. Leave the par where it is, and set your overall goals based upon your final score, not how many over or under par you were. Better yet, set a goal based upon the scoring differential from your round (and, by extension, your handicap), which takes into account the difficulty of the course as well as your score that day.

The handicap system does what you're looking to accomplish in a much more precise and elegant form. It gives you a number to aim for based on the best 10 of your last 20 rounds, and if you match or beat that number you know you had a good day. If you didn't match it, it just wasn't your best day on the course. Either way, it's the most realistic goal for any golfer that steps out onto the course.

Great post. Would give it 2 likes if I could.

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I'm not changing.   And I'm totally against changing rules, or changing scoring systems, or anything else.  

The way I play, I am disappointed if I don't break 90.   I aim to break 80, which I've not done yet.  I don't measure myself by 72.   I'm not disappointed if I don't shoot par.  I am thrilled to make a birdie, a real birdie.  I would never be thrilled by a fake birdie.  I'm not trying to be a pro golfer.   I play against my own personal standards. 

If I told someone I just shot 10 under par, but that par was 90, I don't know what they would think.  I don't know what I would think. 

Changing par to make people feel better is like giving out participation trophies.   It's fake and meaningless. 

 

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